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Some output footage looks washed out. What's the issue?

Community Beginner ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

testing my drone, I shot some stuff in d-log, corrected in premiere pro CC, got it looking pretty good.

BUT when it output it, it looked very washed out, as though the corrections I had set were not actually applied on output.

output screen shot.jpg

Brought the same footage into another project also in PP CC, corrected and output, and it looked fine.

Premiere Pro screen shot.jpg

I don't know where to start looking. Any suggestions?
Thanks

Sean

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LEGEND ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

What were the export dialog settings of the first project? This is something a bit odd.

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

Its like looking for typos.

Here are the settings:

Screen Shot 2018-10-09 at 3.28.13 PM copy.jpgScreen Shot 2018-10-09 at 3.14.46 PM.jpg

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LEGEND ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

When re-imported into PrPro, does the problematic export still appear washed out?

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

Not exactly sure what you are suggesting. Delete and reimport? I have brought this and others into 2 projects and all output is washy.

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Community Expert ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

Just to be clear, are you looking at the Export file in PP? IE: There's a check box on your export dialogs that are not checked. You can bring the export file into PP just in the normal way as adding any other footage. That way you are looking at it on the PP monitor.

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

I am not trying to import it back into the project. I send it to an output folder.

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Community Expert ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

Understood. But to compare the color of the clips in a like for like scenario.

Just bring it into the project, load it into the source monitor, and compare the frame with the frame from the Program monitor.

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

Good idea and very interesting results. I brought the exported bit back into the program and the color looked fine. so I re-exported it, and again in quicktime it looks washed out. All this as MP4.

Then exported the file I've been testing with, the original, as a .mov. Comes out looking washed out. Reimported it, looks fine.

I have no idea where to go now.

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Community Expert ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

Yes, R Neil Haugen​ can explain it in detail, but it is the Quicktime viewer causing the issue. Take a look at it with VLC or a different view to see if it doesn't appear more like in PP.

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LEGEND ,
Oct 09, 2018 Oct 09, 2018

The problem you're having is viewing the export in a program not only not color-managed but noted for being color-stuupid.

Try viewing the exports in VLC or Potplayer, two color-aware viewers.

Another issue ... are you on a Mac with a P3 monitor?

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 10, 2018 Oct 10, 2018

VLC appears to work. But if I send this file to someone out there in the world they are likely to play it in Quicktime and say, Oh my god! Indeed, I have beed doing video for 10 years or so and have never had a problem with Quicktime, and I spoke with a friend in the profession for 25 years and it is new to him.

So what do people do with clients, particularly corporate clients? Give them VLC downloading instructions?

Is this fixable by Apple? Dow it have to do with Mojave somehow?

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LEGEND ,
Oct 10, 2018 Oct 10, 2018

Sean, you should go to some colorist meetings!

I'm talking guys/gals with the big spendy Flanders and other pro b-cast monitors for both their own 'confidence' monitor and for the client who WILL be attending the grading session. Have $3-5 thousand in-house in calibration gear to setup the LUTs that control the external boxes every monitor is attached to, AND have a guy with $30G in cal. gear come in every 6 months to really calibrate their system & all monitors.

But they design their suites so the clients cannot see the colorist's working confidence monitor.

Why?

You can't only not fix gramma's green tv, you cannot ever perfectly match two matching high-end monitors in one suite! Clients will be watching 'their' monitor, look over at the colorist, and say ... make my monitor match yours! Ain't possible.

And ... once sent out Into The Wild ... you have no control what the freaking ever.

A colorist wrote of working a rather high-end client commercial for Major Broadcast use. Was pretty proud of it.

Then took vacation, went to visit his gramma in Wisconsin, one of those folks who just leave the tv running all the time even if they have the sound down to talk. And ... there was his commercial ... but ... like everything else on gramma's tv, it was a washed out pale green. She didn't see anything wrong because it looked to her just like all that other professionally produced media. On her screen.

Mac has gone P3, a very wide gamut, in their newer models. But as has been shown by a very tech-savvy person who frequents this forum, every different size Mac P3 monitor needs a different compensation LUT to match to broadcast standards of Rec709 sRGB/gamma 2.2/2.4. That of course only gets a general match for color space across that size of Mac P3 monitor, doesn't match up the brightness/contrast/saturation settings of each monitor.

That's just the monitors ... and the older Mac monitors seem to be sRGB gamma 2.4, btw. So ... which generation Mac are you producing for? And if newer, which size monitor?

Oh, lets get farther into it.

Chrome and Safari browsers are color stupid. Firefox is very color-aware, so things will display differently depending on the browser used.

Quicktime is fully color-stuupid. VLC and Potplayer are color-aware.

Let's look at viewing situations ... outside in sun on a device like phone/tablet something will look very different than the same media viewed in a dark room on that device. Computer monitor in office with generally bright even lighting is very different than a similar computer monitor in a darkened controlled colorist suite. Tv in living room ... during daytime with big windows ... one viewing environment. Same tv, same room, at night with not lights ... very different view.

Getting a bit of info here?

You have no control of any of that. Period. Get over it, have a good mocha, enjoy life.

The only way to work is the way the b-cast people do. Set up your viewing situation to match professional b-cast standards. Calibrated monitors, if possible via external boxes with calibrated LUT controls in them. If not, get decent calibration gear, calibrate your monitor as best as possible for what it can do. With a Mac, sadly, you have no real options with the main monitor ... getting a b-cast monitor or higher grade LED/OLED monitor run either through a box or direct but in sRGB/2.2-2.4 at around 100nits will get you close.

Test some exported content on a colorist's setup if possible, or make a friend who works in a tv station, get him/her to run a clip through their QC machine and tell you what it says.

Post on the Uservoice noting you need more user-controls for color situation in the UI for PrPro. Currently, Resolve gives the users a setup selection of the 'space' of the monitor, and will attempt to match the media to the monitor situation. It would be great to have this in PrPro. It ain't perfect, but better than nothing.

The next version of PrPro has been previewed at IBC, will drop sometime 'soon-ish', and is shown as having some user settings. Maybe that will help you.

But setup so that you get proper viewing for Rec709/2.2-2.4 on at least one screen, then ... let it go.

If your material is properly setup for that b-cast standard, which is used by over 90% of all pro material, it will look the same on other screens as other pro material on that screen. And none of them will ever match exactly what you see on yours.

It's all relative, in the end. And you don't control jack outside of your own rig.

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 25, 2018 Oct 25, 2018

Hello, Neil,

I have an update on my detective work with my issue.

The problem is that the outputs from PP of corrected footage shot in Mavic’s D-log seemed not to hold the corrections upon output, not LUTS or Lumetri. Your suggestion to reimport showed that the corrections were in the output file somehow, and trying VLC showed the same. (You pointed to quicktime as the problem, but ALL my clients use Quicktime, and even footage uploaded to Vimeo had the problem.)

OK, so…

I got out my trusty aging laptop, running High Sierra, took a file into PP CC2018, corrected a bit, output, and LO! the file looked fine in Quicktime! This doesn’t exactly pinpoint the problem, but I did try to output from CC2018 on my editing machine, the one running Mojave, and it didn’t work.

So by elimination it seems that mojave and it’s quicktime version might be the problem.

Now I only learn what I absolutely need to, so I have no idea what is behind the scenes. So I am not sure at all how to proceed? Revert the editing machine? (Can I?) Try to reach Apple?

I’m a poor little sheep who has lost its way. Any pointers gratefully accepted.

Sean Kernan

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LEGEND ,
Oct 25, 2018 Oct 25, 2018
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Hey, trying to sort out color issues are ... complicated, and the complications can be complex. Easy, right?

I wrote a bit about video color management issues in computers for another thread, and may help here. And I think the issue is the OS and hardware of the newer Apple rig you're on. There's so much involved between the hardware of the computer, the OS design & settings, the use of a graphics card and the settings for that, and the monitor and what it's set to do. And really, none of those come set up for pro-level video color standards use, they seem to do everything possible to force something else to happen.

As to all the clients using QuickTime ... that is a color-stupid app. It pays no attention to the color-space tags of the video it plays, totally depends on the 'system' doing the right thing ... which isn't bloody likely unless someone knowledgeable has modified settings in the OS/GPU/monitor. So ... what do you do?

Realize, ​everything​ they watch via that stupid player has the same problem. It's all relative. No one on any other screen will ever see exactly what you see ... not even with thousands of dollars in high-end monitors and calibration gear within your own suite. Certainly not "out in the wild". But if yours is done as close as possible to pro standards, then ... what they see will look like other pro media in that player on that machine.

Neil

...................

Getting Color Displayed Correctly

Most computer users doing video work are still operating from some incorrect assumptions. As the user, you have to unlearn some of the ways you think this imaging system works, in order to get setup so it works properly for you.

The "system" is a mashup of parts. A basic computing system has first the computer hardware ... then the operating system (OS) and the way that is designed to work with a monitor to display images on screen ... then the video card, typically ... and a monitor.

Each is a separate entity with its own 'concerns'. The computer hardware just exists to compute & pass along the data of that computation, totally has no concern with that data. Doesn't see video data any differently than say a text or spreadsheet.

The OS has more interest in the display, but primarily these days that interest is to 'enhance the viewing experience' as the primary goal. Accuracy of display to any standard is not even a concern, the OS is designed to enhance your experience. Because the vast majority of users are known to have lousy quality screens with no management ... they want to help you get past being the dummy they expect you to be.

So there is normally little concern in the OS, as it installs, with showing any media to any sort of real pro-end standards.

Next, that video card ... most cards assume gaming if you're displaying video ... and have all sorts of 'enhancements' to that experience. So, you have a really dark scene in the game, the card automatically brightens the lighter parts so you can see better who's lurking in those shadows.

For Nvidia cards, you need to go into the Nvidia controls and turn that sort of crap off. You also need to set the card's settings so the card controls the monitor via the ICC profiles you calibrated into use for your OS. Proper video display settings for Rec709/sRGB video work.

Now ... that monitor. Like GPU cards, the monitors all assume video is gaming ... or watching some movie. Again, as shipped, monitors are normally set so that they totally disregard color flags and profiles of the media itself and instead "enhance the viewing experience" ... with juiced color settings, that gaming dark-scene thing mentioned above, all sorts of things like that.

You need to go into your monitor settings and turn all that crap off there also. Turn the monitor into a "dumb" piece of hardware that just shows what it's told to show.

NOW ... you can calibrate that monitor with a puck/software system, set the OS to use that resulting ICC profile for that monitor, and have a decent chance of working away. If you haven't done this, well ... there's no way you have any control of what is seen in anything anywhere. And your OS, your card, and your monitor, are all working against seeing any proper or standards met.

Now, we get to showing proper stuff on that screen.

Different types of media can have different 'tags' in them for how they ... hope? ... to be 'seen' and displayed by the system displaying them. Not all media is always 'tagged' for the appropriate color space/profile/details of how it should be seen. As in say, a png file of a video bars & tones image that doesn't have in the file header a 'tag' for correct profile/standard. Each app will see that file differently as the app is designed to see untagged things.

PrPro in this case assumes video sRGB, AfterEffects assumes graphics sRGB, and those two standards for sRGB are slightly different. Hence ... a non-tagged png or other file will appear slightly different between PrPro & Ae based on each app's default assumptions for untagged files.

Prpro and Ae both apply tags to their exports. If ... 1) the entire system the export is played back on is set as above, and 2) the app used actually pays attention to the tags, then and only then will that export be seen very close to the way it showed within the app that created it. No matter whether it was created in PrPro, Ae, Resolve, Vegas, whatever.

But even then, only in apps that pay attention to media tags.

Even if the system is set correctly, if the app pays no attention to flags, then ... that image/video will probably be off in some way from within the app that created it. As has been so often stated, QuickTime player pays no attention to tags, is one of the worst viewers possible to check for 'accuracy'. Same with Chrome and Safari in browsers.

PrPro or any other media creating program can only control color appearance within the program.

Your system has to be set to show properly tagged video media to that pro standard, and you have to use apps that actually pay serious attention to tagged media, to see nearly the exact thing outside the app in another viewer or program.

I hope that helps.

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 10, 2018 Oct 10, 2018

Oh, and I am on an iMac.

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