Tangent Element TK control surface not working w/ Lumetri Color in Premiere 2017.1.2

[John Tariot]

Greetings-

As the title states, I cannot get my Tangent Element TK control surface with Lumetri Color in Premiere 2017.1.2. Specifics are appended below.

I have gone through, I believe, all trouble-shooting loops with both Premiere & its settings and preferences, as well as the current release of TangentHub 1.3.3. I have been an almost-daily user of the Element/Lumetri Color in a professional high-volume color correction and grading environment for at least a year, I am pretty familiar with the workflow and set-up, and it is sorely missed.

I have been in touch with Tangent, and they have been helpful in providing some custom mappings, but do not have a solution other than that. I have done some searches here and see some spotty discussion, but couldn't find anything recent or specific enough. Apologies if this is answered somewhere I have missed.

Given that Tangent is recognized as control surface option, and advertised as such, and that it had previously been supported, this is particularly frustrating.

If there are other users here who are in the same boat would like the mappings, let me know. Otherwise, Adobe, anything to add? I remain hopeful.

John Tariot, C.S.I.

Using Tangent Element TK control surface with Lumetri Color in Premiere 2017.1.2, some functionality is no longer present- particularly Color Wheels (and also that Element never did provide functionality in all areas of Lumetri Color):

Basic Correction: panel reads "Mode: Lumetri - Basic Correction", panel unresponsive

Creative: panel reads "Mode: Lumetri - Creative", in "Adjustments" the left and right balls control Shadow Tint and Highlight Tint

Curves: "Mode: Lumetri - Curves", panel unresponsive

Color Wheels: "Mode: Lumetri - Editing", panel unresponsive (this is missed most of all)

HSL Secondary: "Mode: Lumetri - HSL Secondary", rings and balls perform as expected in "Correction", when set to a 3-way correction

Vignette: "Mode: Lumetri - Vignette", panel unresponsive

[R Neil Haugen]

Wow, this is a lot more troubles than I've been having ... my only issue is the well-known one of 2017 where going into the Color Wheels tab PrPro kicks the Elements (and Ripple) panels out to 'Edit' mode ...

I hope you've filed the bug report on this ...

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

We need to make sure this is well represented in the bug report filings.

Neil

[John Tariot]

Cheers, Neil, for the bug report link, and best of luck with your own issues. I will attempt to report back here should there be any changes to this situation. Appears to be more wide-spread than just me (tho' with slight differences).

- John

[R Neil Haugen]

There's a  complete breakdown across the board on a couple things, and it seems ... odd behavior here and there for others. So, yeah ... we need to keep mentioning anything we find.

And thanks for filing the bug ... those do get distributed to all managerial types in some tabulated form.

Neil

[Chris_Rose]

The three bugs we know of are as follows:

1)

Values in Lumetri jump to zero when you touch a control on our
panels for the first time.

2)

Color Wheels window in Lumetri does not open when Color Wheels
is selected from our panels. However the controls on the panel do switch to
controlling the Color Wheels and the Color Wheels mode is reported to the
panels by Premiere.

3)

When you select the Color Wheels window in Lumetri using the
mouse Premiere reports to our panels that it's in Editing workspace so our
panels now go to Editing mode and not Color Wheels.

All three bugs impact on each other:

Because of not being able to see the Color Wheels controls when
you select them with our panels (2), you can't see what's happened when you
touch a control and they jump to zero (1), so then you try and click on the
Color Wheels window in Lumetri with the mouse to open it and now you can't
control anything as Premiere is sending our panels to Editing mode (3).

Cheers,

Chris

[alanc94784765]

Hi, I have similar problems.  I have just bought a Tangent Ripple to use both with Premiere Pro and Color Finale (in FCPX).

For Premiere I reported this scenario to Tangent (assuming it was their problem) but their recent report back to me is that this is Known Issue with Premiere CC 2017 (11.1.2).  See recent comment from Chris in this thread.  My description is this:

In Premiere, pressing the B button (Next Mode switch), I can click through all the panels of Lumetri.  Every panel EXCEPT ONE opens in their usual, proper "parameter view" so that you can see the parameter details of that panel - the one panel that doesn't open in its parameter view is "Color Wheels" - why?

So in effect you have to work blind if you choose to continue.  If or when you grab the mouse to literally click on Color Wheels panel (so that you can expand it and see the parameters responding), the feedback to the Tangent Hub on the mouse click makes it switch to the Editing HUD, different from the actual active panel in Lumetri which remains in Color Wheel (why?).  So now you DO still see the color wheels updating in the Color Wheel panel (if you accept working in the Editing HUD).
Weird but OK, we carry on...

So now I am trying to tweak a custom ALTernate function for the Color Wheel panel (in Mapper) but it can't/won't apply because the Hub keeps switching to Editing Mode HUD after clicking the Color Wheel panel to reveal the parameters.  So in effect I'll have to customise the Editing Panel in Tangent Mapper to get the results I want!

Why doesn't the Color Wheel panel just open in its natural state (like on a mouse click), revealing its parameters when using the Next Panel switch of Ripple?  Then there would be no problem.

There is obviously a bug causing miscommunication between Tangent software and Premiere software for this Color Wheel panel.

Regards

[R Neil Haugen]

Yup ... that's a royal pain up the whatchamacallit, and totally kills a smooth and fast workflow which is why we all need to use Ripple or Elements panels in the first place ...

Hope you filed the bug report!

Neil

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

[alanc94784765]

Just reported, thanks for the link.

Alan

[R Neil Haugen]

But of course! We need to be ... visible, I suppose?  

Neil

[zip91436]

I filed a bug report again after updating to 11.1.2 (22) on Premiere with the same difficulty. Along with all stated in this string I want to add that when switching between clips in the timeline using Ripple to control Lumetri effect I have great difficulty.

First, when I advance to the next clip in the TL and start to color it I find that I am still coloring the previous clip and not seeing it change in the PGM window on the right(because I am not affecting the highlighted clip at all).  I am unknowingly coloring the master clip of the previous cut in the TL and not the present one highlighted and in the PGM window.  What a pain.  Premiere does not release the Master clip color control when advancing to the next clip in the TL.  Instead, it holds the parameters of change to the last clip affected if it's the master clip......and does not unlatch Lumetri from it even though I have selected a new clip to color as a local clip or its master clip when available as the highlighted clip in the TL.

Using Mac OsX 10.12.1

40 G ram

Dual display

2x2.4 Ghz 6-Core Intel Xeon

NVIDIA GeoForce GTX 680 2048 MB

Serial Number GMVJ90HGF4MD

[R Neil Haugen]

File the bug report please ... just to get it officially onto the list of bug reports filed as high as possible.

Neil

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

[zip91436]

Yes, case filed as bug report.

Thanks

Sent from my iPhone

[John Tariot]

This recent post, "Professional Color at Adobe – Past, Present & Future" by Patrick Palmer, Senior Product Manager for Video Editing at Adobe, officially announces the long-anticipated demise of Speedgrade. Important to us here in this thread, however, is that this also means end-of-life for Tangent Element control surfaces on ANY Adobe product, and, thus, forcing those of us who rely on control surfaces to move to other applications.

This is particularly concerning given that:

1. Tangent Element were fully-supported in previous versions of Premiere
2. Reproducible bugs have been widely reported by users, and confirmed by Tangent
3. Control-surface compatibility is touted by Adobe in their marketing, and, indeed, is essential in any professional application.

So, in short, it means that control-surface dependent suites have a(nother) reason to make the final move away from the Adobe line as they can no-longer be considered true, professional solutions.

Given Patrick's recent post, this seems like an appropriate time to try to convince Adobe to "walk the walk" when it comes to satisfying professional users. You can reference Patrick's own words in your updated bug reports here​: "There’s still a lot we plan to do to increase productivity for everyone working with color and light, and we’re also laser focussed on keeping the promise of the Lumetri design approach."

- John

[R Neil Haugen]

John,

Your conclusion is totally invalid. Period.

As a user with both the full Elements and the Ripple, I've been in touch with the Tangent people and while down at NAB/Vegas, the Adobe PrPro staff attending there. Both have staff working on not only getting the annoying bugs out of the 2017 PrPro, but also expanding the capabilities of the Tangent mapper and therefore the tools within PrPro we'll be able to control with the Element, and perhaps the Ripple. I've been told (because I asked very directly) that theoretically there's no reason they shouldn't be able to say get the Essential Sound Panel available under Tangent mapping.

I'm disappointed a fix hasn't been out yet, but have been told they are both working on it. And given new PrPro head Patrick Palmer's history with color ... co-creator of Iridas/SpeedGrade, creator of Project Candy (what became Hue then the "Looks" section of Capture), color is a big part of his ... awareness?

I'm rather an impatient sot, but ... I expect we'll be happier when that fix is released. And I do expect it. Though ... sigh ... no one's emailing me with a timetable!

Neil

[zip91436]

I too am impatient and respect everyone's opinion on this string. However as a professional working and relying on Adobe for content creation I find it exasperating that it is at the top of its field in today's arena and highly relied upon since it superseded Final Cut and Avid in handling multi format material and scaling projects as needed.  Sure each NLE has its strong points over others but when users point out shortcomings in Premiere it's the responsibility and quick reaction by Adobe to put itself on top and offer the best features and reliance to stay in its position.  I've written up feature requests and bug reports only to find that there is a long Helllllllooooooo!  echoing back from an empty deep cavern.  I have learned and performed on every NLE system that has hit the market and do enjoy Premiere and the Cloud Apps.  But we do indeed need improvement and response from Adobe to confirm interest and performance lest they fall into that bottomless cavern and be forgotten in a short time. My request is-"If it don't work, FIX IT!"

It is meaningless to me to have to go out to a third party App to continue Color Correction and have to deal with interpretations and faulty plug-ins that don't translate.  Come on guys, polish it up and be proud of what you've accomplished at Adobe.  Your demo guys really shine in understanding, presentation, and excitement on working features of the program as we do.

My biggest disappointment is constant faulty performance reliability and the color correction engine unable to work with Tangent Ripple and trace a clip back thru a multi-cam group to effect a source clipp change in color.  Master Clip tab seldom lights up and show source in the project only goes back one layer to a multi cam group.  I need a better solution to color applied to all uses of the clip in the timeline no matter how or where it appears.  Avid Color does it best.

[R Neil Haugen]

As another user, who also sees numerous limitations for the type of colorist work I tend to do in Lumetri ... file those bug/feature reports as often and on as many issues as you can! The more the merrier, as it helps the managers re-direct the budget to the things "we" want fixed.

I'm mostly able to work, but ... needing to open the Color Wheels tab with the mouse ​after​ I move to that tab from the Elements control buttons or the Ripple "next-tab" function is a pain in the tuckus.

And having that marvelous set of buttons, knobs, & dials on my desk ... I want to use it for ESP also ... and maybe ... well, everything?

So ... yea ... file away. Please!

Neil

[zip91436]

I'm with you 100 percent Neil.  As you say, "The squeaky wheel gets the most grease."  I'll file another report/request/complaint.

-Barry

[R Neil Haugen]

Thanks!

Neil

[John Tariot]

Well Neil, your "pronouncement" is certainly welcomed (tho' it is more opinion than fact), and the intent of my post was to stir the pot a bit, given Patrick's announcement. Looks like I succeeded

Like you, I have been a long-time user of Premiere (starting out on my Quadra 840 AV), and I, too, know and have spoken with people at Adobe and have been in touch with the fine folks at Tangent. I eagerly await their fixes- as do you, and many others.

However, I'm running a studio that, for instance, recently had to turn around 47,000 feet of 2K DPX scanned film, with an investment in Premiere and Tangent Element panels, and an expectation that this would work as it has in the past. Not being able to do literally hundreds of corrections and grades within Lumetri with our (previously working) panels forced us to move away, reluctantly, from Premiere (at least for this work), so, for me, and for the work we are doing, my conclusion is, actually, 100% valid.

Period.

- John

[R Neil Haugen]

As there ain't none of us here staffers ... there's always a certain level of reading the tea leaves.

That said ... I'm rather comfortable with the above comments.

And very aware that for so many using the Elements & Ripples, this is really, stupidly screwed up at the moment, and has been for several frustrating months. What your shop is going through is ... wasteful. Stupid. And should have been fixed by now. Yep.

Neil

[John Tariot]

Looks like the two of us spurred a couple more bug reports anyway! So, "mission accomplished." Keep up the good work.

- JT

[R Neil Haugen]

You too! I'll tell you, if I was running a shop with a number of those spendy and very productive items rendered about half as productive ... I'd be rather more than impatient myself ...

Neil

[zip91436]

Interesting story John. At times I wish I had my full blown Avid system on hand. Maybe Adobe should buy Blackmagic and create the new wonder cloud for all of us.

-Barry

[R Neil Haugen]

Hoo boy ... lol

Neil

[John Tariot]

Et Voilá!

Adobe Premiere Pro CC 12.0.0 (2018) recognizes my Tangent Element TK, and, so far, seems to be working flawlessly! I have not given it the full shake-down yet, and don't have some of the issues others have reported on this thread of late, but I do want to report that my issue seems to be resolved.

To any of the Adobe elves whom may have been reading along- many thanks. And thanks to all of you here who took the time to file bug reports.

My best-

- John