Variable frame rate video with Premiere Pro

[rmshro0]

Variable frame rate video comes from many places these days: phones, live streamed video recordings.

Adobe Premiere is a supposedly production level piece of software that cost a good chunk of change.

How is it 2012 and Adobe does not still have an answer to this problem?  After trying to editing/convert/mux/edit variable frame rate videos for the past 5 hours I am just exhausted.  No amount of conversion apps, etc have saved us and THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TOO.

We have spent thousands on Adobe software packages over the last decade, probably 10s of thousands, and the only answer I find consistently is to switch to Vegas.

Surely, SURELY someone at Adobe with real insight into the issue can help answer the question of whether users moving into different medium should find a place elsewhere in the software ecosystem...

Message was edited by: Kevin Monahan

Reason: to make article more searchable

Title changed.

[MD_Optofonik]

Would folks here tell an award winning DP not to use a certain piece of gear or tell a director not to use a certain technique because it doesn't suite them and their workflow or would folks here find a way to "make it happen" so they could work with such a lauded professional (and maybe get asked back)? It's a rhetorical question but answers to such questions (they happen on a daily basis) are what define a person's career; not necessarily their ability to make a living but the type of work they are offered to make that living. Some people thrive on so-called impossible challenges. They get the jobs that others don't want at first but when the product comes out everyone else wishes they could have been part of it; choosing to forget or never knowing how "impossible" it was to "make it happen".

It's the same for companies; why some succeed in certain areas and others don't. Dealing with the personalities involved in production work can be a challenge that many decide they don't want to deal with. It's one thing to have a bunch of folks on a forum banging on about how they don't like a  company's new direction or their product's lack of certain features and quite another to have a high profile player criticizing such a company's product in the trades. One is so under the radar as allow for a less than prompt reply; the issue can be put on the back burner even as the forums fill with complaints. The other is a PR disaster that simply cannot be allowed and the big dogs have relationships with such players to the point of changing or adding a feature just because one particular high profile person demands it and because they need any mention of their product in the trades to be positive.

I've been there when one of these folks gets on the phone during pre-production and has a conversation that turns into a bug fix or "new feature" before a show starts. No yelling. No name calling. Just a sober conversation between a top professional and a top manufacturer about the issues at hand and what needs to happen to successfully address them; one on one, directly, no forms to fill out, no being put on hold. Ever have a rep from Adobe show up at your edit suite to help you address a concern or just to say "Hello" in order to maintain an ongoing relationship?

If one can't offer a solution it's in one's best interest to stay quiet so that one may continue to be held in high regard for one's past contributions. Those looking for solutions would do well to ignore the former when they don't stay quiet so that their own reputation may continue to build to that of one who knows when to stay quiet. Someday I hope to be in the latter camp.

Lunch is over. Back to work.

[excited_Genie16B8]

If one can't offer a solution it's in one's best interest to stay quiet so that one may continue to be held in high regard for one's past contributions.

I guess I disagree with that.  I can't solve every issue, but I can most of the time find a way to get things moving again so that a product can be delivered and checks can come in.  And every so often, the best way to get things done is to simply do them differently.

[MD_Optofonik]

That last paragraph was an aside; unrelated to the three previous paragraphs.

[rdyck1]

My 2 cents - run it through Handbrake then ingest.  Works for me.

[r3consulting]

I am having a similar issue, however from what i can tell it is 'constant' rate, not variable.

I am transfering old footage from a HI-8 tape deck. I am using the Sony DV200. It is connected via firewire to PC.  Using PP CS6 to capture. During capture audio is in sync, however when it is done and imports into PP timeline (or even before) it does drift out of sync.  As others have noted, in Windows Media or VLC it plays fine. It is 'only'when within PP.  I cannot figure this out and manually finding the out of sync point and correcting is unnacceptable. 

the fact that other players don't exhibit the issue is perplexing.  The fact that i am capturing it from PP and using it within PP and PP is the one with the issue is also perplexing.

Again, i dn't believe this is a variable frame rate issue, as i used Mediainfo and it shows constant.

General
Complete name                            : D:\!Video-DVD\!Clients\Willis, Katie\#356V\KW-#356 - Copy.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Commercial name                          : DVCPRO
Format profile                           : OpenDML
File size                                : 25.7 GiB
Duration                                 : 2h 3mn
Overall bit rate mode                    : Constant
Overall bit rate                         : 29.8 Mbps

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : DV
Commercial name                          : DVCPRO
Codec ID                                 : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint                            : Sony
Duration                                 : 2h 3mn
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 24.4 Mbps
Encoded bit rate                         : 28.8 Mbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:1:1
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.357
Stream size                              : 24.8 GiB (97%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings, Endianness              : Little
Format settings, Sign                    : Signed
Codec ID                                 : 1
Duration                                 : 2h 3mn
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 024 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 32.0 KHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 904 MiB (3%)
Interleave, duration                     : 968 ms (29.00 video frames)

any thoughts? advice?

[Stan Jones]

Check your capture format or sequence setting; you have 32Kh audio.

[r3consulting]

the audio is 32kh, so my sequence is 32kh audio... so they match.

the video is captured within premier and ironically it is PP that has issue replaying it... any other program syncs fine.

[KarlSoule]

This is off-topic to the Variable frame discussion, but worth answering r3consulting's problem - there are 2 different types of DV capture. DV isn't a variable frame rate format, but the 2 types of DV AVI files store the audio and video in different ways. One creates a single audio/video interleaved "stream" within the AVI file. The other stores the audio and video separately in the file, as 2 separate streams. This second variant always had sync trouble for files longer than about 30 minutes. Shouldn't happen if you capture DV QuickTime, or set the AVI capture to Type 1.

Here's Wikipedia's answer on the matter: "

• DV-AVI is Microsoft's implementation of DV video file, which is wrapped into an AVI container. Two variants of wrapping are available: with Type 1 the multiplexed audio and video is saved into the video section of a single AVI file, with Type 2 video and audio are saved as separate streams in an AVI file (one video stream and one to four audio streams). This container is used primarily on Windows-based computers..."

[r3consulting]

I have a similar issue with audio/video sync on DV Transfer on tapes over 1 hr. ... sometimes it doesn't matter how long.. i think it is how it is handling 'bad frames' or indexing them... as most have said in windows media or other programs the capture plays fine, only when it is dropped in the timeline.

I spoke with adobe support and they lead me to a program for HDV capture, but that wasn't compatible .. so somehow i googled and found this program.. winDV.  it is a VERY small program that simply captures the DV Stream.  well after much testing.. IT WORKS. so you know what... i will just capture my video in this program.  DV Capture is just capturing the digital stream to the .avi... so it really doesn't matter what program is used to capture... and this doesn't seem to produce any issues when i drop the file into premier or encore for editing/authoring.

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/WinDV

just wanted to pass it along.

Rob

[topfunkycorp]

I have also run into this problem with video emitted by screencapture software. The only fix seems to be to re-encode the source video with a fixed framerate (and often 100% of them as keyframes). This makes a 1GB video file into 50 or 100 GB sometimes. Frustrating!

[Swazzlehoff31]

It's shocking to me how little help and understanding is being offered by the MVP's and Staff on this topic. I would like to strongly second the thanks sent to Levyimage for providing the only real solution to this problem.

Guy's here's the bottom line, if competing products offer a solution to this scenario then Premeire has to get on board and provide at least some sort of step-by-step plan of attack for dealing with it.

This is not just a "consumer" problem with the rise of live streaming. In fact i'm having the same problem right now with needing to edit live streaming concert footage recorded from wirecast in our professional studio. Until I reached Levy's reply I was ready to pull the trigger on switching to Sony Vegas for our whole studio. 

In my opinion the MVP's & Staff in this forum should have offered up a solution earlier and not just replied with useless answers question why he was trying to do what he was doing to begin with, or from the staff saying "this is how adobe implements new features."

I don't think a professional forum should waste time on questioning a persons needs, ya know?

[sarapixels]

I am having a problem with this as well.  Some way to overwrite within Premiere to a constant frame rate would be much appreciated. 

[Walter_Johnson]

Levyimage   +10

Jim Simon    -100

So, I am a bit of an old timer, who has seen many boards flooded with questions that receive answers from two ends of the spectrum. This happens on any tech support board I have ever been a part of, software, hardware, video, audio, gaming, drivers, OS, firmware, design, social media, you name it...

The Answers usually come in 2 distinct flavors.

Answer 1 - I hear your question and understand the negative circumstance you are in, however, you are here because you did something wrong, not following some sort of accepted protocol or standard. Therefore my answer comes with a requirement that you essentially go back in time and redo what has already been done or at least do differently in the future. Either way, I will not be giving you an answer that actually helps you change the negativity of your current circumstances, but will at least make you feel bad for the choices you made, which got you here. I will continue to reiterate my value for the protocols and standards and my distain for your choices that got you here.

Answer 2 - I hear your question and understand the circumstance you are in, and though I may or may not believe in the choices you made to get you where you are now, I will do my best to try to get you from Point A (where you are) to Point B (where you want/need to be) in a way that is doable, with a possible fix, add-on, 3rd party application, paid/free, some sort of trick, tool, script, etc. Though we may have differences in protocols, standards, or even best practices, I understand that you are short of a goal you want to reach. I will help you get there from here.

It seems that there are a lot of answers on this thread and elsewhere on other forums that ring like Answer 1. These answers make me sad. They may be technically correct, but are far from helpful. And it is "help" for which people use forums like this one.

For me, I am in the band of editors that struggle with editing video from mixed sources from a company party... ipads, iphones, etc. For me the question is simple. I need a video file that is converted from the "viewable" version, ala WMP or VLC (which works fine), and an editable file... that looks and acts like its "viewable" counterpart.

It seems that the semi-pros on these boards struggle with the concept that they can view it on a free viewer correctly but a "Pro" piece of software can't handle it when we break it down into frames. It doesn't pass the logic test. It also doesn't allow us to edit video files from "standard" devices. And though they aren't "Pro" level, they are taking in 1080 HD video.

I don't necessarily want to beat up Adobe for not handling every media codec/framerate/etc. natively from within Premiere, but I have the latest version of Adobe Media Encoder CC and can't get my video file to transcode into anything that is editable by Premiere.

I am sure that many people could give a discertation on the difference between viewing in VLC and editing the same file in Premiere, but those facts DO NOT change the fact that I am still stuck with a 48 minute long video file that I can't get into an editable format. With something as truly great as Adobe Premiere (No sarcasm here. I love Premiere), it should be doable.

Thanks to all who are trying to find and share workable solutions. The rest of you should take a break from the keyboard.

Thanks,

WallyJ

[John T Smith]

I don't have an iPhone, or iPhone video, so this is not from PERSONAL experience

But, as far as I know, the more consumer oriented Premiere Elements also does not edit variable frame rate video

I don't work for Adobe, and I have never been a Beta test member, but it seems clear that Adobe has decided to put their programming efforts into editing video from sources that are more "standard" in nature... that being "real" video cameras... with being able to edit video from any cell phone or other "non-standard" source as being "nice to have" but not really a part of the core functions of the product

Since iPhone video won't edit in Premiere Pro (or, as far as I know, Premiere Elements) the only thing I know of to do is use Quicktime Pro

Tell Adobe what you want at https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

That does not mean you WILL get you want, but at least it is a way to tell Adobe

[Walter_Johnson]

Ok all...

I found a possible answer for using iPad video in Adobe Premiere (I am using CC).

I downloaded Handbrake (http://handbrake.fr/), converting the video file to H.264, MP4, using the "Constant Rate" radio button with 29.97 chosen as my frame rate.

I imported the converted file into Adobe Premiere and it fits my audio perfectly. (I neglected to mention that I was trying to sync to externally recorded audio.

Worked like a charm. Seeing as how I am posting this after a quick import into Premiere, there may be video quality loss involved but not much that I can tell.

Again, this fix works better than nothing, though it may have issues that I may not have uncovered or may not pertain to my current project,

Happy to answer any questions that might help others.

WallyJ

[Mark Mapes]

Having investigated a clip provided by rmshro0, the original poster, we are currently treating this as a bug in one of our importers, not as a feature request to add support for variable frame rate video.

To be clear, I'm referring to the flavor of VFR content in rmshro0's clip, and there are apparently at least a couple of very different VFR types. If anybody else on this thread wants to submit sample clips for us to check out, please send me a private message through the forum citing this thread, and I'll let you know how to get a clip to us.

[MD_Optofonik]

Nice.

[MrLevy]

ZOMG I'll send you a bunch!

thank you!

will be uber helpful if bug is solved for when I do my show Couch Talk with Gamer Girls.

[AndyON24]

Has anyone found a solution to the problem of PP not accepting varible frame rate files? Has anyone tried Variable Framerate Rx? I found it here: http://www.digital-digest.com/software/Variable_Framerate_Rx_history.html#15

I hope that Adobe comes out with an update patch for this function. The reality of today's production is that you get iPhone/iPad footage from clients or the CEO and you MUST use it. We also use Wirecast to live stream and record H.264 backup files, which are sadly in varible frame rate. Not being able to edit these directly in PP is a huge problem.

Thanks,

Andy

[John T Smith]

>hope that Adobe comes out with an update patch for this function

While some Adobe employees do read in this forum, the only sure way to tell Adobe what you want is at the link below... the more requests, the more likely it is that Adobe will add a new feature

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

[MrLevy]

Kudos for the link.

I missed signing up in time for the Adobe Conference / Expo here in Las Vegas this week which I would have brought this up with any rep I would have ran into. (Also missed getting the free year of Adobe CC... sad face). I do have some updates on the FLV thing, I recently started using the Avermedia Live Gamer Portable pro instead of Blackmagic devices or elgatos (keep in mind my application is video gaming not uncompressed capture), The quality on top of the realiability is FTW, but the FLV variable frame rate import is still an issue of course with Adobe Products. So I tried setting broadcast settings to CBR (forced true) 4,000 Kb (1080p30) in Xsplit (premium) and later attempted to import the FLVs into premier CS6. It was a no go, which should have worked considering the FLVs were constant frame rate of 30. My FLV asset exraction and merge into MP4 method worked for it (see earlier posts on this thread) as usual but I'm glad to report that the audio synce issues are no where near as bad as it was with VFR settings via OBS or Xsplit. So hope that is helpful to those out there.

@jeremyrb I use Skype video chat feeds in my show too, it's a pain trying to pretty the whole production up in post, I agree Adobe should support our niche's format(s). If I'm able to attend the free part of this adobe expo this Thurs/Fri I will personally bring it up to whatever adobe development rep(s) I find.

[excited_Genie16B8]

They may be technically correct, but are far from helpful.

I disagree with that, too.  Again it all comes down to "how to get the job done".  Sometimes you can fix what doesn't work, sometimes you have to redo it in a way that does work.  I feel both answers can be helpful.

[JeremyBinns]

This particular issue is a big challenge for our company.  We interview clients all around the country using a program called Evaer ( http://www.evaer.com/ ) to capture those skype video streams.

It's just not practical to go to each of their locations, or to suggest they purchase high end cameras to record their calls and then go through the nightmare of telling and end user how to set up ftp for a large video file.

We have pro gear, but this aspect of our business requires us to use inexpensive web cams to capture the videos (at least on the client end).  The ability to bring those video clips into premiere and make them more presentable and professional in appearance is very important for branding.

I really hope that Adobe continues to take this more seriously.

[Kevin-Monahan]

jeremyrb wrote:

I really hope that Adobe continues to take this more seriously.

Hi jeremy,

Reading an earlier thread, it appears that one of our engineers says that an importer bug is logged for this. Add your bug report to add weight to the issue: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

Thanks,

Kevin

[AznCQ]

Can we get an update on this?

This issue has been around for a long time and It would be awesome see it get fixed.

Now that Shadowplay is out now, many people will be recording game footage, and right now its unusable in premiere because it doesnt support VFR.

I always had the same problem when I used DXTory with H264 codec to record game footage, audio and video would always desync.