what should the sequence settings be for an edit from a silent movie 15fps

[Michael Grenadier]

So I'm working on a music video that will be visually all from a silent movie (in the public domain).  The file I have is 15fps.  Seems like youtube will accept and maintain the 15fps but wondering if there's any reason to drop the film into a 30 fps timeline?    When I do that, it simply repeats every frame twice. with frame sampling chosen.  That seems the best visual choice, rather than frame blending or optical flow.  I have a feeling I'm overthinking this...    At this point, I'm assuming that the main distribution will be youtube...  but will check back with the record company...   I'm guessing they might want to screen it as part of a performance or at a film festival...  any issues there?  

Thanks as always,

Michael

[Ann Bens]

15 fps.

On export use frameblending or optical flow.

Or export 15 frames and let Shutter Encoder handle the framerate.

[Michael Grenadier · Accepted solution]

Ann, actually, no.  Did a quick test, dropping the 15fps clip into a 30 fps  sequence (exactly 30 fps. not 30p).  The best results were with frame sampling, which just duplicated each frame.  Optical flow created some strange artifacting, particularly on the cuts between title cards and moving image but also sometimes within the moving image particularly if there was some damage to the frame.  Would probably need to go and individually address each problem frame...  Frame blending didn't seem as clean as frame sampling when played back..  Now it's possible that that's a function of premiere's playback on a computer monitor... 

YANNA26705213grl5, if I remember correctly,  silent films were shot at 18 fps... early silent film cameras were actually handcranked so that varied...  The film I'm working on was from 1920.    18 fps was chosen because that was the approximate minimum frame rate to give you "smooth" motion.   And when sound came in, the frame rate whent to 24fps.    early television in the US was 30 fps and then adjusted to 29.97 when they added color to the mix...  and that's ignoring interlacing and PAL video's frame rate of 25fps.  so the clean "conversion" of the frame rates was always complicated...    And the keystone cops frame rate is up in the air, because they often "undercranked" when shooting so motion would be sped up when projected for comic effect.  And that's ignoring the fact that the camera and projector both had "shutters" which actually made the frame duration 1/2 of that with black image inbetween each frame while the shutter closed and the film moved in the "gate."   Digital video doesn't have that intermediate black frame between each frame of image...    I guess I did learn something useful at filmschool.  

For the time being, I'll just work natively at 15fps, and since 15fps seems to be handled by youtube without issue, we may be fine this way.  If we need a file for projection at a festival or whatever, that's a whole other can of worms.

Just found this which is a great explanation of the difficulties in this...

http://www.davidbordwell.net/blog/2015/10/23/silent-frame-rates-and-dcp-a-guest-essay-by-nicola-mazz...

If and when I need to provide a file for digital projection, I'll hopefully be able to do a test at the venue...  Since the finished piece will hopefully be under 5 minutes, shouldn't be an issue to make whatever adjustments are necessary.

Thanks as always guys.  I was hoping for a definitive answer...  But you can't always get you want...

[YANNA26705213grl5]

interesting question, Mike... I don't know anyone who has dealt with 15fps stuff so can't ask around. I would have done the same as you....drop it into 30fps and get 2 frames of the source etc...seems logical.  who knows what youtube does when it gets stuff and converts to show 15fps stuff... I have no clue.

I recall watching the keystone cops on tv as a kid and how fast they ran around, which made it look funny.... but that was at 30fps on tv ...some charlie chaplin movies were shown on tv and looked normal , buster keaton, etc.  hope you let us know what you find out cause it's fun to learn.

[smrpix]

YouTube is capable of playing non-standard framerates, so it shouldn't be an issue there.

An argument for using a more standard 30fps (or even 60fps) is that it gives other people less opportunity to interpolate it in a way you don't like if the video is used in other contexts.

But I am curious how you determined it is 15fps.  16 fps was more common, and it was equally common to project 16fps material at ~24fps even in the early days.  (Between hand-cranked cameras and projectors with rheostats, fps wasn't really standardized until the advent of sound.)

[Michael Grenadier]

Hey smrpix, guess you posted while I was composing my previous post.  I downloaded the film from youtube.  I checked the frame rate in media info and it's cfr 15fps...  It's clearly a professional restoration...  I imagine that for dvd's they just did some frame interpolation to 30fps and then slowed it down slightly to 29.97fps.  and I imagine they used the same workflow for blu-ray..    bwdik...  

[YANNA26705213grl5]

wow. thanks a ton... I learned a lot from the article about frame rates !

[YANNA26705213grl5]

Mike, do you by any chance have a sample ( 5 seconds or so ) of the 15fps footage ?? I'd like to experiment with it just to learn a little more. I have google email and there is some google thing that allows people to share files....and I think there's something called dropbox which sorta does the same thing ??

thanks.

I did download an old movie from some place but it was 29.97.

[Michael Grenadier]

click on my user name at the top of any of my posts and send me a direct message with your email and I'll send you a link for the file.

[YANNA26705213grl5]

OK, thanks... will try it....

[YANNA26705213grl5]

I did it and got a page with your name on top in big letters and a bunch of symbols under it and some posts listed that you made... but didn't see anything to click to send a private mssg ...

[Michael Grenadier]

looks like they've changed this behavior...  Let me see if I can figure out how you can get in touch with me directly

[YANNA26705213grl5]

ok, thanks... i'm gonna do the same... like double check my account settings and make sure private messages is ON or something like that.

The other alternative is to just give you my email address...which is:

what's the worse that could happen if some creepy people try to hurt me by using it ???

[Michael Grenadier]

Here's where you need to enable private messaging but I have mine enabled, so I don't think your settings should matter, bwdik...

[YANNA26705213grl5]

thanks, was able to edit mssg and delete email address....

playing movie in media player classic home cinema and it looks fantastic !  I'm totally amazed.

next step is to start new project in editor and see what happens....this is truly cool.

[YANNA26705213grl5]

Mike, do you see this stuff on the sides ???

[Michael Grenadier]

Yes. Old films were shot 4x3 aspect ratio. HD is 16x9. So what they did
is create a background to fill the left and right sides.

[YANNA26705213grl5]

ohhhhh....ok, thanks.... that makes sense. thanks

[Michael Grenadier]

one of the few advantages of being as old as I am, is that I've lived thru all these changes and understand what's going on.  This is one of the simple ones...  do some googling "interlaced video" and you'll understand how crazy this stuff can get... 

[YANNA26705213grl5]

my brain is like mush.... so much I don't understand about silent movies etc.

I put into editor 2 ways...16 fps timeline and 24 fps timeline.

the 16 looked OK but the sound got wanky.

the 24 looked OK and sound stays nice.

I exported both 16 and 24 and 24 was OK for sound.

this is a portion ( cropped out the blurry background stuff )

[video]

[Michael Grenadier · Accepted solution]

create a new 1080 sequence at 30 fps and just drop the 15 fps file into the timeline which will repeat each frame twice, or just edit into a 15 fps timeline.  The only reason to use a 30 fps sequence is if you're going to have to deliver a DCP (digital cinema package)..  or publish somewhere that requires a more standard frame rate...