Performance issues with Premiere Pro and 4K footage

[bryande]

Since I'm having trouble finding a way to email Adobe directly, I figured I would post it here.

Adobe,

I am an independent filmmaker and freelance video producer. I have been using your products (Premiere, Photoshop) since the late 1990’s. I recently upgraded to a 4k camera and started to see issues with Premiere CS6. I understand that support ended for CS6 a few years back, but was familiar with the workflow and didn’t see a reason to upgrade when working with HD footage. So, I figured let’s give Premiere CC a shot and consider the upgrade. Seems reasonable. I’ve spent my entire trial period with Premiere CC just trying to play 4k footage at an acceptable quality. These aren’t huge files. I’m not talking RED here. Just GH4, 4K, 100Mb/s .MOV’s. I’ve spent the entire trial period either emailing, live chatting, or on the phone with your support. They have all been helpful and very professional. I sent some sample files and a description of my hardware to a senior engineer who is having the same problem that I am on his testing. So it looks like this is a software issue.

Here is my problem:

I am editing GH4 4k .MOV files and am having a problem when I hit the "Toggle Track Output" and toggle between layers of 4k. It starts to drop frames like crazy, even if played at 1/8 the resolution. This only happens when I hit the toggle button (eyeball icon), and not if I am just playing multiple layers of 4k footage. This happens with both CS6 and CC even with current updates.

I just put together a new computer: Windows 10,Gigabyte GA-X99 Ultra Gaming mobo, i7 6800k, 32 GB RAM, and GeForce GTX 1070 graphics card. Hard drive configuration:1.) Samsung 950 Pro U.2 Drive: OS, Premiere CS6 and CC , 2) 1TB PNY SSD: Cache, Previews, and Preview Scratch Disks , 3) 1TB PNY SSD: Captured Video/Audio and Scratch Disks.

According to your specs and hardware recommendations this should be more than adequate for what I want to do.

This even is even an issue when I use low res proxies and set playback quality to 1/8. I see less frames being dropped, but still find this unacceptable.

At this point I am leaning toward not purchasing Premiere CC, out of fear that the problem won’t be resolved and that I might need to look into other software (ie Davinci Resolve). So today is my last day with the trail and I am no closer to a solution.  I just wanted to say that I am both frustrated and disappointed. I really like the way Adobe’s programs work together and have years of familiarity with the workflow.

Sincerely,

Bryan

Mod note: changed the title of your discussion to reflect your actual issue and for search reasons.

[excited_Genie16B8]

Here's a few things I can suggest if you're interested in getting it to work.

1.)  Never use MOV if you can avoid it.  In the case of the GH4, you can.  Switch to MP4.  This will eliminate any possible issues with QuickTime.

2.)  Make sure you do NOT have QuickTime installed on your machine.

3.)  Forget CS6.  It's waaaaay past time to upgrade.  With 4K media especially, you'll want to take advantage of the new Proxy feature.

4.)  When creating proxy media, use only the included Cineform presets.  (YouTube has tutorials.)

5.)  Don't install anything on the computer that you don't need for editing.  No games, no email, no office, no anti-virus or other security software.  Keep it clean.  Use a second machine for non-editing activities.

[bryande]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the response and suggestions! I'll try editing some MP4 footage

and see if that works.

So it sounds like Premiere doesn't really support .MOV files?

For brainstorming purposes: I don't have QT installed on my machine. Also,

I am having the same problem, but to a lesser degree, when using the proxy

feature (not .MOV's).

The machine is a fresh build and lean. Only running OS, CS6 creative suite,

Premiere CC. Microsoft Office, and the Antivirus is just what runs with

Windows 10. I have tried disabling the Antivirus, but it didn't help.

If anything else comes to mind, please let me know.

Thanks,

Bryan

[SAFEHARBOR11]

Hi Bryan,

This may or may not make any difference, but best practice for importing from SD cards is -

COPY entire contents of SD card to a NEW folder on the video drive. Include ALL folders from SD card, keeping all folders and file structures intact. This is a regular file copy, no special software needed for this.

In Premiere CC, import clips via the Media Browser, rather than File > Import.

Learned this years ago, had a customer running CS6 on our PC workstation and his Sony XDCAM clips would not play decent. Adobe support tech advised of the Media Browser workflow and clips then played just fine! There is metadata in the folders which can help Premiere decipher what media it is working with. Not to mention handling spanned clips seamlessly. Just good practice, whether it helps your particular issue or not. Also helps with clip IDs, since content of various SD cards may have clips with same names, like Clip_0001.mp4 or whatever. Premiere will not later get clips confused when using proper workflow.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor

[bryande]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the input. I saw that another user had suggested this. I have

tried it, but the problem persists.

Thanks,

Bryan

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 1:37 PM, SAFEHARBOR11 <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

[excited_Genie16B8]

it sounds like Premiere doesn't really support .MOV files?

No, that's not correct.  But there are sometimes issues with QuickTime which can be avoided entirely by simply not using it when you don't have to.

(Ironically, the recommended Cineform proxies are only available as QuickTime files.  So in that case, you have to.)

[excited_Genie16B8]

Antivirus is just what runs with Windows 10.

That is actually all you need and doesn't interfere with Adobe software as some other software can.  You're fine keeping that running.

[excited_Genie16B8]

I am having the same problem, but to a lesser degree, when using the proxy feature (not .MOV's).

There's the issue.  The non-QuickTime proxies are H.264, the same codec as your 4K media, which just does not edit terribly well.

In my opinion, Adobe should never have made H.264 proxy presets.  Cineform, DNx and possibly MPEG2 should have been the only proxy options included by default.

So give those Cineform proxies a try.

[bryande]

I'll give the Cineform proxies a try. Thanks for the suggestion.

I never had problems toggling between multiple layers of H.264 with CS6. No

problems with Premiere in general until I started using the 4k files.

I'm not using state of the art equipment here, and this codec has been

around for years, so I'm kind of surprised that Premiere CC is struggling

with this. The GH4 has been widely used for over 3 years now, so you'd

think this would have been addressed by Adobe. Makes me wonder if it's a

good program to use professionally? Already lost a week of editing time

trying to troubleshoot this.

[SAFEHARBOR11]

Some flavors of H.264 are more difficult to work with than others. Native GoPro files for instance. Keep in mind that each frame of 4K is like processing 4 HD images, 4x the pixels to decode and push around.

Jeff

[bryande]

That makes sense. But I'm confused by the fact that Premiere would have

trouble playing with the H.264 proxies that it is programmed to generate?

Even when they are at a lower res than 720p? Why would it give you that

option if it can't do it properly?

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 2:55 PM, SAFEHARBOR11 <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

[excited_Genie16B8]

Why would it give you that option if it can't do it properly?

That's exactly why I feel the option shouldn't exist.

[R Neil Haugen]

It has to do with the math of the codecs and the use of hardware for de-encoding. H.264 is a long-GOP codec, meaning it makes a frame, and then for a while just "keeps" the same frame with a list of pixels that have changed ... then makes another whole frame maybe 20 frames later, with a list of the changes for the next group of frames ... something like that.

In de-encoding, the CPU starts out with the frame, sends it to RAM ... grabs the next "frame" which is actually a list of the pixels that have changed, recalls the frame, swaps pixels, sends it on ... grabs the next listed changes, recalls the frame ... rinse & repeat. Stresses the cores/threads and RAM both for number of cores/threads and the amount & speed of the RAM and RAM/CPU interaction.

H.264 is highly compressed in this fashion. It doesn't mangle your hardware that much in 1080 work ... go to 4k, and as Jeff notes, it's got a lot more work to do.

Which is why Jim suggested at least proxies in Cineform or DNxHD/R. Those are intra-frame codecs, meaning each frame is "complete". Bigger space on disc, but a heck of a lot less work in the CPU. They both edit beautifully, and like Jim, I can't see any reason whatever to even have H.264 proxies available.

Eric Bowens has noted that the Avid DNxHD/R is the newest designed of the "main" codecs for video post work, and is actually a bit better optimized in general and especially in 4k/up than ProRes. Cineform is just a sweetheart through the guts of the computer.

So ... it isn't that PrPro can't work with H.264 in 4k ... it's that most computers just don't have the hardware for it. And really, it's a pain of a codec anyway. Except for the small file sizes from a camera.

Neil

[bryande]

Thanks, Neil. That's a great explanation of what's occurring, and makes

sense. Sounds like the Cineform proxies are the way to go. Just out of

curiosity, can you suggest any hardware changes that could be made to my

build that would be better able to handle the H.264?

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 10:02 PM, R Neil Haugen <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

[R Neil Haugen]

6 cores CPU with a fast processing frequency and 32 GB RAM or better for it to use.

Much cheaper to transpose for editing then toss the t-codes after the project is done to save space. Easy to make a new set if you need.

Beat option ... if the camera can produce other codecs.

Neil

[bryande]

Got it. I am using the i7 6800k 3.4 GHz (6 core cpu) with 32 GB RAM. Not

sure if bumping up to 64 GB of RAM would help. This is why I originally

thought it might have something to do with my settings vs hardware.

With the GH4 camera, my 4k options are only MP4 and MOV.

Looks like these are a few options (starting with least expensive):

1. Use Cineform proxies

2. Increase RAM

3. I/O device with H.264 encoding (haven't researched this option yet, but

after reading your response thinking it could be helpful?)

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 11:47 AM, R Neil Haugen <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

[Kevin-Monahan]

Personally, BryanDe, I would never use H.264 (or any Long GOP codec) for generating proxies. H.264 is not performant enough. Stick to Cineform, DNxHD, or ProRes (if on Mac) for best results regarding performance.

When I first learned Avid in the 90's, you always worked with proxies, it was called "offline editing." There was too much data in uncompressed SD files for computers to handle in that era, so we "digitized" our media at a lower resolution we later "re digitized" to after editing.

For around 15 years (with over half of that still on SD formats), then HD, working with proxies and these newer lightweight codecs made it not as necessary to work with proxy footage.

Now we're back to square one regarding working with proxies as cameras (even mobile phone video) are creating footage (like 4K Long GOP H.264) with too much data for ordinary computers to handle.

Hope that puts things into perspective.

Thanks!
Kevin