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A Death of the Family

Explorer ,
Nov 06, 2009 Nov 06, 2009

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Once upon a Time the Adobe Photoshop Forum was a community.  A lot like a family.  There were members who participated daily for a decade or more. Friends. Friends who are now gone, thanks to Jive ware.

A great many of us met one another face-to-face.  Even more have talked on the phone.  We celebrated births of children, new houses, new jobs.  We commiserated over lost jobs, broken marriages, deaths.  We kept up with one another's birthdays.  We had a round robin Christmas card exchange.  Our community, though online, was a real community with daily exchanges, dear friends, like family.  Now gone.  Like a death of the family.

We shared vibrant, energized discussions of how to improve one’s skills using Photoshop.  What one person does not know, another does.  Or did.  The knowledge shared on the Photoshop forum of this day is dismal in comparison.

I personally have owned Dreamweaver about as long as I have owned Photoshop, 11 years or so.  In the beginning I tried visiting the Dreamweaver (Macromedia) forums.  They were cold, devoid of friendship, and uninviting.  No reason to go back there.  I'm not surprised a spirit of community never developed there.  I learned how to use Dreamweaver via the Adobe Photoshop forum.

Now, we old-timers, faithful Adobe customers, are being told that we should put on a happy face and learn to love Jive ware.  We are being told our discontent is the only problem. That this is the only forum that HAS a problem. This forum,  Forum Comments,  where complaints / suggestions on how to improve things  are supposed to be lodged.

We know better.  Jive ware sucks.  It has killed our community and we are supposed to learn to love it.

Also, we are being told there were numerous complaints voiced about recently banned members.

Funny thing about that.  Where are all those numerous complaints?  Perhaps that means there is another forum where these complaints were lodged?  One we, Adobe's customers are not allowed access to?  Or perhaps these complainers managed to e-mail Adobe employees?  Those same employees whose e-mail addresses are not available?

Somehow that does not have a ring of truth.

Or perhaps all these numerous complaints were lodged by one moderator?  That might make sense, if any of this makes sense.

We are told we should ask members why they were banned.  Of course since they are banned, that won't be easy will it?  That is, of course, assuming they have been told.

I must admit that while I am sorely disappointed, I am not surprised with the way Adobe has in the past and now continues to handle one member's complaints about another.

The Adobe way is to take one for a member's complaint about another and ban the accused, without so much as making the effort to contact the accused to find out their side of things.  No matter how serious the charges or how serious the repercussions to the person who has been banned.  No matter if there is not a single word of truth in the accusations.

That sucks even more than Jive ware.

Clearly our former community is of no importance to Adobe. Sorry, I cannot put on a Happy Face.

Paz

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Advocate ,
Nov 07, 2009 Nov 07, 2009

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Do you want to know or not?

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LEGEND ,
Nov 07, 2009 Nov 07, 2009

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Well, here is a test message as per your request:

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/520150

Please everyone fell free to report it as abusive, as its title asks. Although this does not address my comments in a previous message (#15 at the time of posting this one; these things are changing rather fast around here).

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Advocate ,
Nov 07, 2009 Nov 07, 2009

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So do you have a valid email address in your profile and did you get an email?

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LEGEND ,
Nov 07, 2009 Nov 07, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

So do you have a valid email address in your profile and did you get an email?

Of course I have a valid email address: my own. And I did not receive an email but two identical ones, sent with a one second difference. This is their text:

Hello,
>
>This is an automatic, system-generated  message.
>
>The content you posted below was reported for 
>abuse and removed by our moderators:
>
>Subject: Please  report this message as abusive
>
>This is posted in answer to a  request by Jochem.
>Please report this post as  abusive.
>
>
>Posted: 11/7/09 3:43  PM
>
>
>Please review the Adobe.com Terms of Use 
>agreement at
>http://www.adobe.com/go/gftray_foot_terms and 
>the Adobe Online Forums Etiquette and Best
>Practices at 
>http://forums.adobe.com/thread/414764.

And my message was removed. Very justly, it would seem.

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Contributor ,
Nov 07, 2009 Nov 07, 2009

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Yes, but now will the message go through the test and be considered abusive by the "tribunal" and will they send you a second email stating same?

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LEGEND ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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Sorry for the delay, but last night I was logged out immediately after posting my message above, and the login page was not available before I went to bed.


Hopper, as I understand the message I received and quoted, my test message was removed as soon as it was reported as abusive, with no revision:

"The content you posted ... was reported for abuse and removed..." (emphasis added now by me).

It does not say it was considered abusive. And this was no warning: my message had been completely removed by the time I received those emails.

Addition: Please note that there is nothing in my deleted message, quoted in the email, that can be considered in the least ofensive, or against any of the rules.

Message was edited by: Claudio González. Reason: addition

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Mentor ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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The login in server official died 5:31pm EST and remained off as of 12:45 am

Seems like it sign in server had a major melt down.

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Contributor ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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Claudio González wrote:

Sorry for the delay, but last night I was logged out immediately after posting my message above, and the login page was not available before I went to bed.


Hopper, as I understand the message I received and quoted, my test message was removed as soon as it was reported as abusive, with no revision:

"The content you posted ... was reported for abuse and removed..." (emphasis added now by me).

It does not say it was considered abusive. And this was no warning: my message had been completely removed by the time I received those emails.

Addition: Please note that there is nothing in my deleted message, quoted in the email, that can be considered in the least ofensive, or against any of the rules.

Message was edited by: Claudio González. Reason: addition

Claudio,  the entire purpose of the test was three fold.

1) IF a message is reported for abuse, does the originator get an email stating it was reported for abuse?  In your case, yes  you did, in my case, no I did not.

2) IF the reported message is found not to be abusive, is an email sent to the originator stating it was not abusive and is the post returned to the thread.  In my case, yes.

3) IF the reported message is found to be abusive by the tribunal, is the originator sent a message stating that the tribunal found it abusive?  We don't know the answer to this.


I had a message that had been reported as abusive but I only got the email after it was deemed to not be abusive.  I never received one that stated my message had been submitted.

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Advocate ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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You don't get a message when it is reported. You get a message when a moderator approves or rejects the message. Rejection means that it will immediately become invisible to users, though not to moderators.

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Contributor ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

You don't get a message when it is reported. You get a message when a moderator approves or rejects the message. Rejection means that it will immediately become invisible to users, though not to moderators.

Please define "moderator approves or rejects the message" ... does that mean that the mod makes the decision on whether or not something is abusive?  I thought you said you guys didn't make those decisions??

and what if it's considered abusive ... is an email then sent?

I think the originator should receive a message stating one of their messages have been reported for abuse so they can track what goes on with their messages.

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Advocate ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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Moderators deal with messages. Adobe deals with users.

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Contributor ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

Moderators deal with messages. Adobe deals with users.

Ok, so, I still believe emails should be sent out when 1) a message is reported for abuse 2) when said message is either considered abuse or not considered abuse.

I think the users should be informed when they are reported and then the decisions about that reporting.  I also think that it would be a good thing for the users to know who is reporting them ... is it other users (if so who) or is it mods (if so who).

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Advocate ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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If you seriously want that yu should ask Jive: http://www.jivesoftware.com/account/create

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Contributor ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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Oh, I get it, in order to get reasonable and fair treatment, one has to make a special request for such things.  Clearly the report abuse button was not well thought out. 

I hope that there are multiple mods looking at the reported abuse posts.  I sure hope the mods have to explain when they feel something is abusive, otherwise it would give way too much power to the mods for attempting to remove people they don't like from the forums.

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Advocate ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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greenjumpyone wrote :

in order to get reasonable and fair treatment, one has to make a special request for such things

In order to get changes implemented in software, you have to tell the authors what changes you want. It has nothing to do with supposed merit of your claims, it is just the way it works. It is called a feature request.

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Contributor ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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I stand by my statement:  clearly the report abuse button was not well thought out.

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Mentor ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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I knew from the day I saw the abuse button on the forums, That would be an easy way to be abused by Forum host, Moderators or users. Whom have a bone to pick or a vindetta against a given person. I don't use it infact for spam reporting I report the spam through the spam thread in the forum. I don't wish to be wrong accuse of getting someone banned or warned.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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I somehow doubt that i'd bother with the Report Abuse button if i'd want to mess with someone's posts

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Contributor ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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Yeah, well simply deleting or editing the post could get a mod in hot water too ...

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LEGEND ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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The Abuse Report button is there to give normal users a way to communicate with the moderators that a certain post should be looked at. I for one don't like that it sends out an email when we accept the post because i find it useless. Why would you care that your post was considered ok? Most of the time when i'm accepting a comment it's either because the user wasn't logged in and used the Report Abuse button to post his reply or a user asks to remove private info (the OP asks by reporting some random post in the thread). Would you really want to get an email when one of these happens?

Claudio, when somebody reports a post as abusive, it comes into the moderation queue of every moderator who has access to that particular forum and anyone of them can approve or reject it. Of course, we can also edit it but in the end the post has to be either approved or rejected. If it's approved, it stays on the forum, otherwise it's hidden from normal users but in both cases, the poster gets a canned email response.

Here's what you get when your post is approved:

Hello,

Though the content you posted below was reported for abuse, it has been approved by our moderators:

[...]

Posted: 11/6/09 11:56 AM

Thank you for participating in the Adobe Online Forums.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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Zeno, thank you for your explanation. There were at least two users in this thread who didn't understand how the process works. Instead of being explained, we were invited to post a trial message to find out, which I did. My message was deleted, I received two identical emails informing me that it had, but the experiment left me as doubtful as I was before performing it, as my message did not violate any rule, and the emails I received did not say it was found abusive, only that it had been reported as abuse. To top it all, my trial message was "made invisible" before I had reported receiving any email; i.e. before anyone knew what had been the result of my experiment. And before I received the emails, for that matter.


This thread would be many messages shorter had anyone explained the procedure at the proper time.

Finally, may I suggest that the text of the notification message be modified?

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LEGEND ,
Nov 09, 2009 Nov 09, 2009

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Thanks. I have followed your suggestion here:

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/520642?tstart=0

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Mentor ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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But I assume you would have the integretity not to delete a post on a whim or simply because a given user goes against you personal Grain. See that the problem. We have moderators her that have let the powers go to their head. They feel all powerful. And can run roughshod over anyone they want to, simply because they can.

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Advocate ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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Phillip Jones wrote on 11/8/2009 8:03 PM:

I knew from the day I saw the abuse button on the forums, That would be an easy way to be abused by Forum host, Moderators or users.

Is easily spotted when people try to do so. But so far we have only had

this problem twice. The first time when Ozzwoman9 and Kath-H tried to

organize something like that in mid-August (messages 2182835 and 2183903

for who keeps records). The second time when Ann Shelbourne started

reporting every message from somebody else last month. But it really is

very obvious from the abuse queue if something like that happens.

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Contributor ,
Nov 08, 2009 Nov 08, 2009

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and who were Kath and Oz reporting?  Perhaps one should take that into consideration before casting what appear to be aspersions on them.

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