Just in case...

Report · Oct 01, 2009

Just in case anyone from Adobe thinks these forums are getting better, are more accepted now that all the knowledgeable regulars have been driven off and the community that existed has been destroyed. This Forum still su

cks, its slow ugly and a huge space waster. The dialog in the forums has turned into a bunch of lazy people who can't be bothered to read the manual. All discussion about anything technical or advanced just doesn't exist. thanks Adobe.

Report · Oct 03, 2009

Hi khaziranga

See, this is just one example. You wrote something and you never once stopped to consider that it may be interpreted differently by anyone else. That's common and all of us do it all the time. No issue there.

The issue is that you then become decidedly combative and suggest I'm to blame and at fault simply because I interpreted it differently than you intended. And again, simply because a Community Expert logo is near my forum name you make a generalization about all "Community Experts" and say I'm putting words in your mouth. No, I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm only trying to convey the way *I* interpreted it.

There was no open discussion. No comeback to say okay, I see where what I said might be interpreted differently. Nope, it was quite simply case closed. You played all the roles of Judge, Jury and Executioner and state that Community Experts are the cause of all the woes in this forum.

Sheesh indeed!

Report · Oct 03, 2009

My Dear Captiv8r,

There was a simple statement made by me. It said, in reply to a question, "Get rid of moderators such as you." There is no room for ambiguity in that statement. Unless the reader does not understand simple English.

All attempts to interpret it as something else are a twisting of facts and intent. And by extension an attempt to imply or infer something that i never said.

It's as simple as that. No combativeness. Just sheer outrage at how you've attempted to twist my words with your 'interpretation'. And please do not now try and hide behind the Community Expert tag and get everyone to feel sorry for you. With your 'interpretation', you did attempt to put words in my mouth and convey thoughts i never intended.

Report · Oct 03, 2009

LOL, get everyone to feel sorry for me? I see no point in that. There is nothing to be sorry for!

I've been working with forums for probably too long. On more than one occasion I've received astonished replies from others because of an ability to accurately comprehend what someone was asking with a software product I support. I've provided accurate answers when others have said "I have to hand it to you for understanding that, because never in a million years would I have got that from what they said". On the flip side of that, I regularly see folks wander into the forums and ask what they felt were perfectly clear questions. Only after I queried what they meant by offering examples did they come back to say things like, hmmm, I never considered that. I suppose I should have said instead...(reformulated statement) ...because now I see it can be viewed differently.

I stand by my earlier statement that your statement could mean at least three different things. I did freely and openly state that only YOU could clarify what the actual meaning was after I listed the possible interpretations. I don't consider that to be putting words into your mouth.

I consider this to be an educational opportunity for you. Now you may choose to view it that way or not. That's up to you to decide how you wish to view it. The opportunity? To learn that just because something seems perfectly clear to you does not mean it will be received that way by whomever reads it later.

And for what it's worth, you can clearly see that while you feel things were clear they weren't clear to me. So what exactly do you mean with your statement? I'll even make the answer quite simple for you. Choose A, B or C.

You said:

Get rid of moderators such as you?

Please tell us what you meant.

Was it:

A: Get rid of all moderators?

Jochem is one of many new moderators here in the forums. You may not like moderation and prefer the forums to be unmoderated. So you may be saying that you don't wish to see ANY moderators, of which Jochem is but one.

B: Get rid of only Jochem?

You and others may dislike his style, so you prefer that Jochem be removed from moderation capabilities.

C: Get rid of only moderators that practice certain styles of moderation?

You don't mind moderation, but only under certain conditions. Or moderation should be limited to X, Y or Z.

Are you now able to see the ambiguity in the "perfectly clear" question?

Cheers... Rick

Report · Oct 03, 2009

Oh boy! How can a person be so verbose and at the same time so slow on the uptake?

Owing to the pall of inactivity hanging over the product forums, I find myself with time on my hands and come in here to alternately laugh and cry.

Report · Oct 03, 2009

John Joslin wrote:
Oh boy! How can a person be so verbose and at the same time so slow on the uptake?

Owing to the pall of inactivity hanging over the product forums, I find myself with time on my hands and come in here to alternately laugh and cry.

With you Mr Joslin...

Report · Oct 03, 2009

I'm afraid you're being wilfully dim. Distort the statement how you like, it's perfectly clear except to someone who is determined to make it ambiguous. No-one else had the slightest difficulty understanding what was meant.

(@ Captiv8r, in case you're going to insist on misunderstanding that as well)

Report · Oct 03, 2009

Hi Kath

Everyone sees it as they see it. No changing that.

I'm not being willfully dim. The question quite simply remains unanswered as far as I'm concerned.

Consider the Eastern Indian culture for example. One might say "We are not having coffee with dinner".

One may simply read that and ascertain that it is simply declaring that Coffee will not or should not be served. But it may also be asking whether Coffee will be served with dinner, no? That's probably a bad example because a question would likely end with a question mark, which would then provide a clue as to the true meaning.

I did some contract work for Adobe a while back. In working with the Indian culture I found myself often having to clarify things that were actually meant quite differently when reading them in the message. The context wasn't clear. Had I simply accepted the face meaning as most would likely interpret things, I'd have been in serious trouble on many fronts.

Your claim of "No-one else had the slightest difficulty understanding what was meant." simply cannot withstand logic. You have heard from everyone that read this message? I think not. All you have heard from are those that are essentially calling me a dolt for pointing out it could mean different things.

Oddly, nobody has answered with an A, B or C that I proposed to clarify things.

Personally, from my standpoint the answer still isn't clear. Then again, I'm viewed here as just a thick headed dolt, so ignore me!

Cheers... Rick

Report · Oct 03, 2009

Captiv8r wrote: so ignore me!

Happy to oblige.

Report · Oct 03, 2009

Then again, I'm viewed here as just a thick headed dolt,

Well, I wouldn't have said it in so many words ………

so ignore me!

Wish it was so easy to do so, but because you will insist on injecting countless long, infuriating, holier-than-thou, quasi-philosophical posts in response to every topic, it is hard to igore them!

Basically, your input is NOT helpful in this Forum and only serves to stir-up trouble, so why don't you take a hint and go back to the Forums where you believe that your input is valued?

Report · Oct 03, 2009

Ann! I've missed you so. How nice to see you again. I'm pleased beyond measure that you weren't banned like you thought you were. Good of you to stop by.

Now, on with the show... (or should I instead say it something like this: Now, onneth we shalst proceed with the sanctimonious antics of the great and powerful Destroyer of Communities, generally verbose and disruptiing beyond belief, not to mention the overall thick headed musings of the avatar of Captiv8r.)

Wild applause ensues... (I crack myself up sometimes.)

Ann Shelbourne wrote:
...Basically, your input is NOT helpful in this Forum and only serves to stir-up trouble, so why don't you take a hint and go back to the Forums where you believe that your input is valued?...

Because I'm a member of the overall Adobe forums (including comments about the forums) and my cheerful input here holds equal value to your negative input!

Besides, SOMETHING has to partially balance things. I mean, I'd hate for the forums to get all lollipopsided and like flip on their back like a June Bug or something.

I think what infuriates you most is that there wasn't enough of a backlash of "experts voting with their feet" to warrant an immediate switch back to the former incarnation of the forums that you feel was so much better. So Adobe changed the playing field and put up a different sandbox and many didn't like it. They took their toys and left. We are all free to do that at any time. It's called life. Changes happen that you don't like. Adobe likely had a very good reason for doing what they did. After all, they didn't grow to the size they are by making stupid decisions.

Does this mean the forum software has no issues? Absolutely not! Believe it or not there are things I dislike about it. But does it help my cause to bash and lash out at Adobe and their designees at every turn over it? If I did that I'd become like a child throwing the tantrum at the mall. Adobe will likely turn a deaf ear.

You always have a choice. Think about it. The only REAL and TRUE control that you ever have with any situation is how you choose to react to it. That reaction may be positive or it may be negative. The good news is that you have been given the gift of freedoom to choose your experience! Personally, I choose the positive experience. It can change your entire outlook and outcome of life events.

Okay, now that I've made you all sick again you can go retch.

Cheers... Rick

Report · Oct 03, 2009

wow.

Rick, in post 25 it was very clear that the poster was referring to Jochem. Later in post 39 he again explained that it wasn't meant for all moderators, only the one he replied to. C'mon, you're intentionally being obtuse on this issue. Sure, we can't speak for all who read the posts, but I am very confident that you are the only one who read it as all moderation should be eliminated.

For me, the biggest loss was that of the Photography forum. I've lost so much contact, information, help, friendship etc from the decimation of that forum due to the new EULA and this new software.

The Photoshop forum has indeed lost most of their experts. I don't think the intention here is to denegrate the other forums, but is very clear frustration at the loss of the flagship program's helpful (and true experts in their fields) forum users.

Report · Oct 03, 2009

Oh for pity's sake! As far as I know there's no-one in this discussion whose first language is Hindi or Punjabi! And stop with the one-upmanship - many people, including me, have had thousands of discussions on all kinds of topics with people from a wide variety of cultures. You don't have any 'special' insight here.

A: Get rid of all moderators?
Of course not - did you read 'such as you' ? I thought I explained, with the insertion of a comma, it could mean that. As it stands, it doesn't. WITH the comma, it means 'moderators in general, for example you'. Do you understand grammar/punctuation at all?
B: Get rid of only Jochem?
How could 'moderators such as you' refer to only one person?
C: Get rid of only moderators that practice certain styles of moderation?
Give the man a banana!

'Such as you' means 'like you'. Similar to you. Sharing your characteristics.

If you persist in pretending to misunderstand, I must leave you to it, but please don't pretend to be providing a 'learning experience' for anyone.

Report · Oct 03, 2009

Thank you Kath!

So I get a banana! Yay! It's option C.

Kath-H wrote:
Oh for pity's sake! As far as I know there's no-one in this discussion whose first language is Hindi or Punjabi!

But you have no clue who khaziranga is or where s/he hails from. Perhaps his/her first language *IS* Hindi or Punjabi! After all, s/he only appeared today and somehow managed to focus on this particular forum and this particular issue. Which seems odd in and of itself.

Cheers... Rick

Report · Oct 03, 2009

But you have no clue who khaziranga is or where s/he hails from. Perhaps his/her first language *IS* Hindi or Punjabi!

I'd stop digging if I were you.

Report · Oct 04, 2009

Captiv8r wrote:
But you have no clue who khaziranga is or where s/he hails from. Perhaps his/her first language *IS* Hindi or Punjabi! After all, s/he only appeared today and somehow managed to focus on this particular forum and this particular issue. Which seems odd in and of itself.
Cheers... Rick

You really are determined to go on and on... fantasising and fabricating as you go along. And it doesn't matter if my first language is Hindi or Punjabi or Sanskrit... for that matter it doesn't matter if it's German or Japanese, Chinese, Korean Swahili or even Zulu. What matters is that i appear to speak better English and have a more lucid grasp of the language than you. In several posts i have made very clear what my statement meant – a meaning contrary to all your interpretations, from A to C or whatever. Yet you insist on going on and on... Flogging a dead horse as shunithD has mentioned.

Regarding your second sentence in the above... i made one post. You have subsequently twisted and bent it out of all shape as to its original meaning. I have therefore had to reply – several times – correcting your gross misinterpretation of the meaning and intent of that same statement.And despite all my corrections of your misinterpretation you insist on carrying on with the same misinterpretation.

It appears to me therefore, that if there is anything odd in and of itself as you put it, it is entirely your doing.I can only say that it appears apparent to several others as well as myself, that it is you who are bent on wreaking mischief in this thread.

Amazing is putting it quite mildly.

Khazi

PS: I suggest you run the above through several translators of the host of languages spoken on this planet to see which of them misinterprets in accordance with your misinterpretation. Finally, run it through an English translator and you'll find that i have said exactly what i meant to say.

Report · Oct 04, 2009

The best advice he ever gave was to ignore him.

I have been doing it successfully for a while now.

It's good! Saves me from wanting to throw my keyboard at the monitor.

Report · Oct 04, 2009

John Joslin wrote:
The best advice he ever gave was to ignore him.
I have been doing it successfully for a while now.
It's good! Saves me from wanting to throw my keyboard at the monitor.

Report · Oct 05, 2009

You do realise that what "Captiv8r" (apparently he doesn't have the courage to use his real name) is really doing here by posting his rambling sanctimonious sermons is de-railing a serious discussion about why the most valuable players in many of the Forums have left in droves.

This is the very worst sort of "trolling" and it is especially egregious that one of these Community Demolition Experts should stoop to this level. The whole lot of them are just a source of endless trouble in this particular forum — and have been ever since they acquired those cursed "badges".

To get back to what ails the Forums, and why busy professionals just don't bother to post any more, the problem IS the Jive software and the appalling format that has been adopted because Adobe chose to be "cheap" (as they did when they outsourced Customer Service and when they laid-off highly skilled angineers to replace them with more lowly-paid ones).

The result is that we have been landed with the cheapest, non-customizable, least effective version of Jive; and with slow under-powered Servers which together combine to make the new Adobe Forums some of the most infuriatingly slow and inefficient sites that I have come across on the entire Web.

To that, you add the addition of the current crop of "Moderators" who apparently have little knowledge of the software being discussed and are seemingly incapable of stimulating serious, meaningful and sustained dialogue.

Previously we had "Hosts" who, like any good host were all capable of encouraging excellent and stimulating discussion among their guests.

Neil Keller, Ozpeter and the rest are sorely missed but they apparently found the "new and improved" Adobe Forums to be more than they could stomach.

Report · Oct 05, 2009

Ann, maybe he is hiding from this other Expert that seems to be impersonating him: http://forums.adobe.com/people/RoboWizard. At least, both claim to be Experts, both use the same avatar, and both publish the same photography of themselves, which smells terribly fishy to me.

Hosts/moderators should act promptly and exemplarily on this. Impersonating another user is bad enough, but impersonating a Moderator should not be tolerated under any circumstance. We cannot let this forum degrade to a game of hide and seek, where we have to guess which of the two is the real one...

Report · Oct 05, 2009

He had some probably bizarre reasoning as to why he keeps two accounts but I can't remember what it was. Really though, whatever it is just get over it and use one account, I mean..

And back on topic, I can recall at least a few people LOST to my (former?) product forums (NOT the PS forums) shortly after the jiving of the forum community. At least one of which was an extremely active NNTP user, who IIRC seemed to have tried using the new jiveware interface, but dropped off the face of the jiveboards* shortly after. Tell me that didn't happen due to jiveware..

*I refuse to refer to this jived up software as "web forums" anymore, it doesn't deserve the designation.

Report · Oct 05, 2009

Acutally there are very good reasons. None of which involve "hiding" behind any identity. But if I told you the reasons it would only be construed as both a diatribe and a reason I find the Jive software better than what I had before. So I'll spare you the details.

Report · Oct 05, 2009

Anyone can have excellent reasons for opening two accounts -I opened a second one myself some 4-5 years ago for very good reasons. Using them at the same time, however, is a completely different matter. My second one was opened for a very specific purpose, I used it for a relatively short period of time and exclusively for that purpose, and I have not used it again ever since.

If a moderator has good reasons to keep two different accounts, and to use them both simultaneously in his role of moderator, I think we are entitled to know those reasons. I at least cannot imagine a single valid one, and therefore think it's not right.

Report · Oct 05, 2009

Claudio, your reply may have some merit if I moderated here.

The issue is, I don't!

I operate in this forum only as a participant, the same as you do. Jochem is the moderator here. If I were to begin moderating here it wouldn't be very respectful of Jochem.

Cheers... Rick

Report · Oct 05, 2009

All I can say is that I wouldn't normally use two accounts, even as a simple user and not an Expert.

Report · Oct 05, 2009

Rick,

do you moderate on any of the Adobe forum boards? If yes, do you alternate between your two monikers or do you use one for when you are moderating and one for when you are simply posting?

If you are using one for posting and one for moderating, I would think it in good taste to remove the Community Expert label from the forum posting moniker. Otherwise, it's quite misleading.