Brainiac

Question

Point system on forum

Forum|Forum|15 years ago
September 18, 2010
13 replies
7068 views

I'm sure this has been discussed at length, but I am not a fan of users selecting the "right" answer and points being awarded. Many novice users do not know what the right answer is and vote incorrectly, or there are multiple right answers. I feel this just adds a competitive edge to the forums that is not helpful. I'm a competitor and, I'll admit, when I give a right answer and someone else gives the same answer and gets the "vote", I'm disappointed. There are great, helpful people in these forums and I am indebted to them, that's why I'd like to share some of the knowledge I've gain. I suppose I just need to grow up and ignore the silly point system that is now in place.

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Jacob Bugge

Adobe Expert

I agree completely with Claudio.

Please.

Claudio González

Brainiac

Bill, Dave, John, Rick (alphabetical order),

Is this new discussion about the communities (two very different ones have been mentioned) really necessary? Or serving any useful purpose? Or is it just reopening semi-healed wounds?

A

Anonymous

no, you're right. sorry. revisionist history though makes me itchy.

A

Anonymous

communities grow. they're organic. they're not just plopped down like astroturf. there was a community here before it was ripped up and replaced with astroturf.

but see how nice and green it stays?

Jacob Bugge

Adobe Expert

The following thread may hold the most amusing post about points, ever, in all the forums (unless/until someone destroys it by telling the OP something):

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/727999

Are there other threads worth sharing here?

Captiv8r

Brainiac

Ten points to you for making a point of pointing out how pointless points can be. Especially when you are trying to to make a point about adjusting points and not awarding them.

Out of curiosity, was the OP attempting to adjust the points for outlining the antlers on an eight point Buck?

And the most burning question of all. Did the OP get pointed in the correct direction?

Cheers... Rick

Jacob Bugge

Adobe Expert

The ghost of the wine snob is still with us.

rcraigheadAuthor

Brainiac

Looks like I'm not the only one. I DID pull back from the forum over a year ago, partly on this issue (and the fact I'd been laid-off and had other priorities).

I've mellowed a bit in the last year (I hope) and am willing to ignore the imperfections of the "system" to glean the benefits. And those benefits are many. I could name names, but I'd miss someone.

Ray

Jacob Bugge

Adobe Expert

Before and after the change from the fair forums I concentrated my efforts in this forum.

When I resumed my posting in my native forum(s) after some months, I decided to keep stumm about the points and other forum matters, in order to see how they actually worked, in other words without influencing the actual pointsgiving.

Obviously, in many threads no points are given, and in many threads the points reflect the correctness/relevance of answers.

However, I believe the very point/title concept makes the forums a less friendly place and promotes wrong attitudes.

In addition, I believe I can state the following general observations, also based upon a comparison with the conditions in the fair forums. Things may be different in other forums, and other forum changes may have contributed, including the appearance and performance.

1) The giving of points depends on a number of factors influencing the behaviour on the OP, including knowledge about the way the points/forums work (and are intended to work), knowledge/insight in the application, desire to please responders, mood at the time of posting. This gives a certain inherent randomness in pointsgiving, including the marking of even wrong answers.

2) Apart from rarer cases where points are given after the thread has come to an undisturbed end, the giving of points tends to be based upon time, rather than quality, of answers. This means that the OP will often give (high) points quickly, in some cases just for any answer (see also 1), occasionally apologizing for running out of points to give or simply regretting the choice(s). This also means that whoever starts reading the thread is more likely to stop at the first (right or wrong) marked answer(s) and miss the (benefit of reading and learning from) rest.

3) The giving of points/ticking answered by the OP tends to stop further development/giving of answers. This is seen as shorter and blander threads, with fewer thorough discussions and fewer solutions offered; a possible reason is that potential contributors skip the thread, maybe even without opening it, maybe after reading only the first posts.

2) and 3) seem to be mutually intensifying, and along with 1) leading to:

A) A certain number of cases where OPs and readers are left with wrong/inferior answers;

B) A loss of inspiring exchange and knowledge building, both for the OP and for everyone else.

4) Based upon a comparison of similar answers in similar threads, forum members asking for/suggesting the giving of points tend to receive an increased number of points, at least for a while. This applies to both the actual threads in question and to other threads, especially for frequent/much read posters.

5) Similarly to 4), forum members denouncing/ridiculing points tend to receive a decreased number points.

6) Forum members with many points seem to be more likely to receive points.

4), 5), and 6), seem to be interlinked, creating a self induced pattern.

Just a few more specific observations in a few threads, one quite recent:

In one thread, a specific but completely wrong answer in (one of the) first post(s) was given 10 points so that the thread would appear as answered; after that, a number of other posters pointed out the error and gave actual viable answers; the OP thanked for those answers, without giving any points out, and the thread appeared answered, with one (ticked) star only at the wrong answer.

In another thread, one of the posters (often arguing for ticking specific answers (which leads to points)) suggested the awarding of the ticked star (with 10 points) for the right answer by someone else, and got it himself for the post with the suggestion, with no other points given.

The only thread I have ever seen where the pointsgiving really made sense and sorted things out was a thread where

one poster quietly pointed out the inadequacy of an earlier simple solution and gave a clear and detailed answer, which was completely ignored in the following rather unfriendly discussion between a number of other posters, some maintaining the former answers, others suggesting other answers; the OP never reposted but gave the ticked star to the otherwise ignored post when the dust had settled.

the_wine_snob

Inspiring

Jacob,

I agree with most of your observations, and share those feelings. The one that sticks out, however is:

However, I believe the very point/title concept makes the forums a less friendly place and promotes wrong attitudes.

I'm just not sure of this, but maybe have not seen the issues that struck you. Because of the vagaries of point-giving, I suppose that animosities could crop up, but I have not seen that. I more often see seasoned posters commenting that reply # X was actually better, and that that poster should have gotten the "Big 10."

I believe that most posters here are motivated more by a desire to help, than to receive any stars, points, or anything more than, "hey, that solved my problem." Maybe I am taking a far too simplistic view of things, but then I have a very simple mind.

Still, some very good observations, and perhaps I am just naive on that one point.

Hunt

Jacob Bugge

Adobe Expert

Bill,

I agree that most forum members ignore the points; and as everyone is probably aware, the use of pointsgiving is limited.

But this only means that the limited use would limit the damage; there is no basis for any conclusion that it is entirely harmless.

I have also seen the fondness of points cool in many cases, which may also be seen as a confirmation of their inappropriateness.

I agree fully with Rick about the undesirability of forum members offering assistance for misguided reasons.

However, that seems to be an inherent part of the very purpose of the points, according to the guidelines linked to in post #19:

***

Points indicate the value of a contribution to the community and encourage users to participate more actively.

***

Different levels are associated with the points you earn. When you reach a level, a symbol appears next to your user name on each of your contributions and your profile page. This symbol recognizes you as a valued contributor in Adobe communities and establishes your credibility with the rest of the community.

***

Apart from the breaking up of the free flow of the threads into boxes, the points and levels do set the posters apart. I believe everyone has witnessed some amount of disagreements/complaints/clashes over points.

What has really offended me has been, several months after the forum change, to see a few of the most knowledgeable contributors ever, who had posted extraordinarily insightful and detailed posts for years, often in cases where special knowlegde was required and no one else had the answers, presented as lowest level Users among Participants and Contributors; they often posted late in threads, and mainly in threads with more difficult issues.

Therefore I am afraid the very general observation you mention is a more or less inevitable consequence of the pointsgiving: posters are sorted out, and points do become an issue, at least from time to time, at least for some.

Apart from all that, a bit less than a year ago, after several months with the new forums, many believed that the giving of points was in decline. I decided to have a closer look and went over many pages of threads in one of the forums, right back to the very beginning, counting the number of answered threads on each page. Quite surprisingly, it turned out that the level was almost completely constant. I have not repeated this, but I believe the level is still the same.

Jacob Bugge

Adobe Expert

The following threads show just some of the earlier considerations and observations, and making fun of points (the first two being from the trial period, and the third one actually being the last thread of the fair forums; some of the threads are rather long, stretching over multiple pages; and you will see most of our lost friends from this forum taking part):

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1133300

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1132570

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1909788

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1133045

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1901735

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1922490

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1927404

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1949957

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1968112

http://forums.adobe.com/message/1968106

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/435134

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2055526

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2150876

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2160773

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2226490

As it appears from the following guidelines, there are quite different point systems, the forums only being one rather lean source when comparing points versus contributions (at least in my native forum, I and others regularly post detailed guides, or small tutorials):

http://www.adobe.com/communities/guidelines/

In addition, the points have been in use far longer in those other community areas, thus resulting in some posters having a considerable number of points even from the beginning.

A

Anonymous

Good post Jacob: and thanks for the trip down memory lane!

Maybe one of those who have gathered brownie points from writing articles, rather than answering questions, could enlighten us on that part of the system.

pwillener

Brainiac

The only useful part of that system is that the original poster can mark the thread as "resolved" or "answered", which helps a lot in a busy forum.

Tai_Lao

Inspiring

pwillener wrote:
The only useful part of that system is that the original poster can mark the thread as "resolved" or "answered", which helps a lot in a busy forum.

…provided the poster is really in a position to discern a good answer from a bum steer.

Otherwise, it does more damage than good.

A

Anonymous

Well, that might depend on why one comes to the thread to begin with. If one is hoping to help out, then they might shy away, assuming that the answer has been given. OTOH, if they have used Search, and ended up at the thread, I feel quite certain that the "Answered" icon will not cause them to hesitate. As a matter of fact, should one come to the thread via that route, I would anticipate that they would be MORE likely to read a thread, that might also answer their question.

I cannot count the number of threads, where there were dozens on great answers, and nothing was ever marked. A new subscriber shows up, with a similar problem, and posts, "Did you ever find anything that worked?"

I think that it depends on who is navigating to a thread, and why.

Hunt

I cannot count the number of threads, where there were dozens on great answers, and nothing was ever marked. A new subscriber shows up, with a similar problem, and posts, "Did you ever find anything that worked?"

i think that's exactly what john means. that person overlooked all those wonderful answers. on the other hand, he gets to a thread with all those wonderful answers but one (and the first poor one, at that) is marked "correct" and all those wonderful answers are wasted on that poor soul.

his fault? ya sure. but a lost opportunity to "teach a man to fish".

Claudio González

Brainiac

rcraighead wrote:
....
.I suppose I just need to grow up and ignore the silly point system that is now in place.

Together with the too many bugs one has to ignore in order to use these forums, some of them corrected in versions of the forums software that are now about a year old, but still there because the software has not been updated...

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