The Big Picture

[Guest]

I think what is not being understood by some participants in these discussion is the scale of change which will follow the transition to the new forums.

Have a look at http://www.jivesoftware.com/products/clearspace-community and you'll see that the purpose of the Clearspace Community software goes way beyond the objectives that might be deduced of the current forums and their underlying software.

My personal take on things is that Adobe have decided that the whole style of the user interactions and community here is no longer appropriate to their corporate needs. There was a time when provision of a support forum was not seen as much related to the main thrust of company objectives, but those days have gone. Online communities are now one of the chief means of interaction between a corporation and its customers - and it's a two way channel. Interaction between those customers is also facilitated by within the online community but that's not necessarily deemed to be the key objective.

The forthcoming change represents, sadly, the end of this community and the creation of a new and very different one. The functional elements and the look and feel of their presentation in the Jive software are carefully designed to foster a particular style of interaction between users of Adobe software, and beween the users and the company. The functions and form are designed for an over-riding purpose and to support an overarching communications philosophy, not thrown in upon a whim.

It seems very clear to me that Adobe expects that the new community will have a significantly different flavour to the old, and that they will have anticipated that not all of the present members of this (and the Macromedia) communities will feel at home in the new one. There's no need to warn Adobe that some people will be unhappy enough not to return - they will have accepted that risk at the outset.

While there will be an inevitable loss of expertise, and it will be sad to see the last of some regular participants here, it seems clear to me that Adobe are hoping that the new style of community (moulded by the software they have chosen to create it) will bring in new members who may well have considerable expertise in the products, but who have not felt encouraged to participate in the style of community we have here now. The company will also be hoping that those newly requiring support will find the new site to be more effective and simpler to use than the old, and that the site will enable the company image and the strengths and usage of the product lines to be put across more clearly.

That, as I see it, is the big picture. There's not much point in discussing the points of detail unless in the context of the overall company objectives in making these changes - and if you disagree with the whole underlying premise of the changes, then there's little chance that you'll like much of the detail either.

[John T Smith]

>an Adobe products group outside of Adobe

Yahoo has free forums on just about any subject there is

Over in the Dreamweaver forum there has been discussion of software for people who have a server and want their own forum... I don't have a link to any of those discussions, but here is the one for Dreamweaver

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/index.cfm?forumid=12

[Hudechrome-sd9sPI]

I used to be called that when I was a kid. "Hey ace!" they would call.

Hmmm.....

[_Ken_Nielsen_]

"Adobe have decided that the whole style of the user interactions and community here is no longer appropriate to their corporate needs."

Too bad. User interaction is one of the best methods for answers to user questions on all levels. Part of the interaction is the informal nature of the environment where ideas and information can be exchanged in the most meaningful way 'in the trenches' so to speak. Through the years, these forums have been an invaluable source of product use conventions and ideas related to Adobe products. Never discount the creativity of the end user to finding new and substantial methods of working with these great software products.

The loss of user to user discussions would be a second loss of this type in my career; The first being the switch from traditional camera reprographics and paste-up to computer digital production, where the artist was removed from the close working relationship with others, camera, press, light table, paste-up, typesetting, bindery and all the other individual disciplines that went together to produce publications. The computer basically set a new working environment where all of these disciplines were brought together under one person's abilities at the computer and that person became an island, micro managed in a cubicle setting. Only through the advent of the user to user forums was that person liberated to take part again, in a community way of communication with others who worked in the same field.

I realize that Adobe has no obligation to continue the user to user forums, but for what they have been, a bridge to advancement of understanding and career, I sincerely thank Adobe for what they have done to keep the forums in place this last more than a decade.

Ken

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

I am getting a picture too and a VERY disquieting one at that.

What I have learned from this discourse is that these so-called "Experts" are in fact "awarded" their titles in lieu of any monetary payment on condition that they conform to the following:

>What does Adobe require from experts?
>All Adobe Community Experts are expected to exemplify the program fundamentals of product proficiency, enthusiasm, and professionalism towards Adobe and our customer base.

>In addition, Adobe Community Experts agree to be active contributors to the Adobe world-wide community by:

Engaging in peer to peer support in the Adobe forums
Posting information and technical support in their favorite online community
Writing articles for professional publications
Presenting Adobe product presentations at conferences and user groups

In plain English these so called Adobe Community "Experts" are nothing more than Adobe Sponsored SHRILLS!

They may receive no monetary (taxable) rewards but they get their self-important little Titles, free software and a few jamborees to keep them on board.

If the Forum's are going to permit these meaningless titles to be displayed, let's make sure that we keep their true meaning clearly visible so that everyone recognizes them for exactly what they are: Adobe Sponsored Shrills.

Then a suitable acronym is not only self-evident but also apt.

If any of these Adobe Community Experts have any integrity they should either clearly state their commercial connection to Adobe or drop their membership in the program entirely and retain their independence.

[Bob_Peters]

Ann Shelbourne:

While your past contributions may be significant (I don't claim to know) you current penchant for vitriolic comments is WAY over the top. You should consider going away for a few days and trying to calm down, Right now I suspect you are your own worst enemy when it comes to trying to make your points.

[David_Powers]

> If any of these Adobe Community Experts have any integrity they should either clearly state their commercial connection to Adobe

My commercial connection to Adobe: none.

* I am not an Adobe employee nor have I ever been.
* I do not own Adobe shares nor has Adobe ever offered me any.
* When travelling from the UK to the USA to attend Community Expert events, I pay the travel expenses out of my own pocket.
* Again, I paid my own travel expenses and conference fees for MAX Europe last year.
* I have publicly criticized Adobe's unfair pricing system for customers outside North America.
* I have also been quite open in my criticism of certain product decisions.

Now back off, Ann. Your vendetta against Adobe Community Experts is tiresome and childish. Campaign all you like to preserve the type of user-to-user forum you want, but you're beginning to sound like a typical luser rather than someone who has earned the respect of others in the forums where you stick to technical issues.

[Guest]

>Adobe Sponsored Shrills.

I think you mean shills. :)

[David_Powers]

Yes, Ann is the shrill, although clearly not Adobe-sponsored.

[Guest]

Nice professional comment David

If the Community Export label is not important to you why have you spent so much effort in defending the use of it? This whole controversy could be avoided if the experts would have said no big deal to us lets not have it. The fact that they have argued the other way speaks volumes

[John T Smith]

>Ken... "The loss of user to user discussions"

That is not what was said

This forum is software A, the other one is software B

The NEW forum software will be C - not none at all

Come back (sometime) in April to see the new software

[Günter_Schenk]

Ann,

-------
They may receive no monetary (taxable) rewards but they get their self-important little Titles, free software and a few jamborees to keep them on board
-------

last year I for once didn´t even claim any "free software" at all -- not because I wouldn´t have considered it useful to have, but I deliberately decided against it because it´s in fact the amount of time I spend on working as Community Expert which makes it impossible to adequately learn and use any Adobe software apart that very one which I have received the designation for.

But now guess what: despite not even claiming any such benefits and also not having any commercial connection with Adobe I absolutely love being on board.

------
If any of these Adobe Community Experts have any integrity
------

as far as I am concerned, I have to say that I refuse to tolerate your assessment of my integrity.

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

You either accept that phoney Adobe "Title" and all that that acceptance implies or you refuse to have anything to do with a scheme that deliberately sets out to mislead Forum Users into thinking that they are receiving unbiassed help from an "Expert".

You be the judge of how accepting, and using, that Title impinges on your "integrity".

[Dirck]

I would like an example of biased help with software.

[Günter_Schenk]

------
You either accept that phoney Adobe "Title" and all that that acceptance implies or you refuse to have anything to do with a scheme that deliberately sets out to mislead Forum Users into thinking that they are receiving unbiassed help from an "Expert".
------

can I have both please ? :-)

[Cindy-]

> If the Community Export label is not important to you why have you spent so much effort in defending the use of it? This whole controversy could be avoided if the experts would have said no big deal to us lets not have it. The fact that they have argued the other way speaks volumes

Ahhhhhhhh, sooooo.

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

>can I have both please ?

No.

It's a Chinese menu:

Choose Menu A; or choose Menu B. You can't have it both ways.

Better still, refuse to have anything to do with this fraud and get Adobe to drop their whole sleazy scheme of duping unpaid people into providing them with free Advertising, Product Promotion and PR while deliberately misleading the Public into thinking that they are receiving honest and impartial advice from "Experts".

[Günter_Schenk]

-------
Better still, refuse to have anything to do with this fraud and get Adobe to drop their whole sleazy scheme of duping unpaid people into providing them with free Advertising, Product Promotion and PR while deliberately misleading the Public into thinking that they are receiving honest and impartial advice from "Experts".
-------

Thank you ! I appreciate any advice which, like this one, is based on mere facts, apparent personal experience and clear absence of prejudice.

[David_Powers]

Gary,

I have never said the title is not important to me. The reason I have defended it so vigorously is because of the wholly unjustified attacks by a self-appointed group of guardians of what they see as the purity of the user-to-user forums.

The title Adobe Community Expert is accorded annually to approximately 200 professionals in recognition of their expertise in a particular area related to one or more Adobe products, together with the work they have done to help others use those products more effectively, be it through writing books, presenting at conferences, contributing to user forums, etc. This is a title Adobe awards, and Adobe has said it wants Adobe Community Experts to be identified in the forums.

This presents no problems whatsoever in the former Macromedia forums, where it has long been the practice for people to identify themselves first as product evangelists (unpaid, unlike the current Adobe Evangelists) or members of Team Macromedia. When Adobe acquired Macromedia, it renamed the scheme Adobe Community Experts, and extended its membership to cover all Adobe products. I don't know whether a similar scheme existed within Adobe before the merger, or whether it simply adopted the Macromedia system. However, the important thing is that Adobe decided it wanted a team of Community Experts. It could have closed down the scheme the day it took control of Macromedia, but it didn't.

The attacks made by Ann Shelbourne and others on the Community Experts are deeply offensive. Yes, I know they're meant to offend, but the vitriol and sheer ignorance behind the attacks have totally destroyed the credibility of the perpetrators. I have read elsewhere that Ann has been a valuable contributor to the Photoshop forum. She should have stuck to what she knows best.

I came here for a discussion of how the new forums will work. Instead, I have been greeted by the howls of a small clique unwilling to contemplate change and hostile to outsiders. I have seen several suggestions that the changes will destroy the user-to-user forums. There might, indeed, be some truth in that: the change might be designed to break the stranglehold of established cliques.

[Neil_Keller]

[double post, deleted]

[Neil_Keller]

>Better still, refuse to have anything to do with this fraud and get Adobe to drop their whole sleazy scheme of duping unpaid people into providing them with free Advertising, Product Promotion and PR

Honest? There is no fraud here. There are no duped Adobe community experts or hosts. In my 15 years or so experience in the Adobe forums it has never even been "suggested" that we tout or defend Adobe products and services or disparage others. There is nothing prohibiting us from posting rational disagreement. Like the other hosts and community experts I know, we're here because we enjoy participating, contributing and learning within this vibrant community.

The occasional smile or "thank you" is its own reward for a volunteer. Any other bennies are incidental.

Neil

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

One big difference Neil:

You have never found it necessary to post your "Community Expert" label.

Forum Host has always been all that you needed: your knowledge not only of the Adobe products but, even more important, the ancillary trades of the printing industry, makes your expertise more than obvious.

As for the other so called "Experts" who have posted here, I am convinced neither of their expertise nor of their reasons for masquerading under their insignificant titles.

And the more that they defend the practice, the more I realise just how insignificant they are.

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

>You have never found it necessary to post your "Community Expert" label.

Not Neil, nor Ian Lyons. I've never seen such a label in any of the five forums in which I participate regularly: Typography, ATM and Type Macintosh, Color Management, Photoshop Macintosh, Camera Raw, Bridge Macintosh.

As I said earlier, the first time I ran into this badge was when this Murray person showed up displaying it, half buried in his annoying autoquotes. How is Murray and "expert" in the forums forum?

[_Mike_Ornellas_]

Rome has already fallen. The Greeks just don't believe it yet.

[Guest]

> As for the other so called "Experts" who have posted here, I am convinced neither of their expertise...

If you visit only the Photoshop forum, how would you know whether someone from another forum (which you've admitted you NEVER visit) has the 'expertise' to be called a 'Community Expert'? Surely Adobe themselves know this a lot better than you.

As for free software, I too, haven't had a selection for the last 2 years - I didn't see the need to order apps. that I don't/wouldn't use. That didn't stop me from doing what I've been doing for the last 4 years... going out into the community and helping newbies.

I don't visit any of the graphics forums, but there is no way that I'd visit this forum or any other and start calling out peoples' reputations without knowing something about them. You are the one that started the 'them vs us' scenario here.

1. I don't know who the hosts/moderators are of the forums I don't visit
2. I have no idea of who belongs to which forum
3. I have no idea who is more knowledgeable about which product

Your intolerance is unbearable.. and the more I read your posts, the more I am convinced that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Spew forth more vitriol, I don't particularly care - but your reputation (I can't speak to that as I don't visit YOUR forum) isn't being enhanced one tiny bit.

(And for the record, mine either I suppose, in getting tangled up with replying to your posts)

[Guest]

However much I dislike the use of both titles and avatars, I would accept them, since a true community has to go along with features which not every member likes.

And unfortunately there are always going to be some noisy rebels who are not prepared to bend from their fixed ideas.

Ranters run out of steam eventually and either accept the consensus or go away and sulk.