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The Big Picture

Guest
Feb 28, 2009 Feb 28, 2009

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I think what is not being understood by some participants in these discussion is the scale of change which will follow the transition to the new forums.

Have a look at http://www.jivesoftware.com/products/clearspace-community and you'll see that the purpose of the Clearspace Community software goes way beyond the objectives that might be deduced of the current forums and their underlying software.

My personal take on things is that Adobe have decided that the whole style of the user interactions and community here is no longer appropriate to their corporate needs. There was a time when provision of a support forum was not seen as much related to the main thrust of company objectives, but those days have gone. Online communities are now one of the chief means of interaction between a corporation and its customers - and it's a two way channel. Interaction between those customers is also facilitated by within the online community but that's not necessarily deemed to be the key objective.

The forthcoming change represents, sadly, the end of this community and the creation of a new and very different one. The functional elements and the look and feel of their presentation in the Jive software are carefully designed to foster a particular style of interaction between users of Adobe software, and beween the users and the company. The functions and form are designed for an over-riding purpose and to support an overarching communications philosophy, not thrown in upon a whim.

It seems very clear to me that Adobe expects that the new community will have a significantly different flavour to the old, and that they will have anticipated that not all of the present members of this (and the Macromedia) communities will feel at home in the new one. There's no need to warn Adobe that some people will be unhappy enough not to return - they will have accepted that risk at the outset.

While there will be an inevitable loss of expertise, and it will be sad to see the last of some regular participants here, it seems clear to me that Adobe are hoping that the new style of community (moulded by the software they have chosen to create it) will bring in new members who may well have considerable expertise in the products, but who have not felt encouraged to participate in the style of community we have here now. The company will also be hoping that those newly requiring support will find the new site to be more effective and simpler to use than the old, and that the site will enable the company image and the strengths and usage of the product lines to be put across more clearly.

That, as I see it, is the big picture. There's not much point in discussing the points of detail unless in the context of the overall company objectives in making these changes - and if you disagree with the whole underlying premise of the changes, then there's little chance that you'll like much of the detail either.

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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>why

For the reasons discussed in other threads already. E.g.:

Ann Shelbourne - 11:08am Mar 5, 09 PST (#37 of 41)

Big Brother is a reality and will be tracking us through "Clearspace" and our "reputations" will be affected by the manner that some moronic and spiteful forum visitor who didn't get the answer he wanted, cares to "rate" us?

[ We do get a number of people like that in the Forums unfortunately!]

Do any of us really want to contribute to these Forums any longer under those conditions?


My answer to that last question is a clear no, I dont.

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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To put it another way: because of the inevitable abuse of the rating system by the type of posters that led you to write the afPlonk! script.

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Guest
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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but again, what if there were no way to mod someone down? only marked as helpful or as a frequent contributor?

>because of the inevitable abuse of the rating system by the type of posters that led you to write the afPlonk! script.

I noted in another thread (maybe you haven't gotten to it yet) that it is possible to ban specific users in the new sw. if adobe doesn't implement it, i'll write a greasemonkey script that will. :)

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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You may not have witnessed this particular poster on the Windows side, but a despicable poster using the ID J_W_1000, regularly put down experts like Bruce Fraser, Jeff Schewe and Chris Cox.

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Guest
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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yea, i know who you mean, but again, no down ratings possible by forum users. how could that (example) person harm anyone?

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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Banning after the fact fixes nothing.

To me it's a very clear cut decision: if rating is allowed, I'm out, period. It's one of the main reasons I stay away from the Apple boards.

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Guest
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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> Banning after the fact fixes nothing.

you can't very well ban before they've done something bannable... can you? :o

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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>how could that (example) person harm anyone?

because the s.o.b. would give negative ratings to everyone with whom he has a beef, and he'd give good ratings to garbage answers on purpose.

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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>you can't very well ban before they've done something bannable... can you?

but you can prevent them from rating answers by preventing everybody from doing that.

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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And how do you know who rated what? What are the rater's qualifications.

To me, rating answers is not only a bad idea, it's asinine. Check the Apple boards.

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Guest
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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>because the s.o.b. would give negative ratings to everyone with whom he has a beef, and he'd give good ratings to garbage answers on purpose.

it can be set so that NO NEGATIVE RATINGS ALLOWED? or did you miss that the four times i posted that before this?

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Guest
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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>And how do you know who rated what? What are the rater's qualifications.

you don't. but if there's a bad rating (as in wrong, not negative), just like now where someone posts "good answer" to some way wrong advice, you go to a moderator, or come here to FCA to have someone fix that? i don't see what's so hard about that, or different from what we do now...

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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dave,

You're being simplistic. No Negative Ratings Allowed is easily circumvented by giving positive ratings to messages posted in bad faith just to contradict the correct solution given. It amounts to the very same thing in the end.

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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Anyway, I was just stating my personal position, not encouraging others. For me the issue is set in stone. I won't change my mind.

If rating is allowed, I'll just be one of the contributors Adobe already counts on losing. Not a big deal for anybody.

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Guest
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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>No Negative Ratings Allowed is easily circumvented by giving positive ratings to messages posted in bad faith just to contradict the correct solution given.

yeeeeeaaa, i suppose that might work to game the system... what would be the point of that though other than to be an #ss-h$$e? we have to deal with them now, but, i don't think that slim chance outweighs the good that could come of lots of people marking an answer as "good".

if you have 10 answers with 1 "good" mark next to them in a thread, and then one answer that has 100, which one are you likely to try?

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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None. I wouldn't be visiting that forum.

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Participant ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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> To me, rating answers is not only a bad idea, it's asinine. Check the Apple boards.

Agreed. On the Apple boards they are all vying over who can get the most. If you forget to give a rating someone always pops up to remind you to rate the answer. Very annoying. It sets up an unhealthy competition rather than being helpful simply because you want to be helpful.

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Guest
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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Dave, correct me if I'm wrong... but the rating system this software uses is that the original poster is allowed one correct and two good answers. No one else has a voice at all.

The big question is whether the average OP is going to be able to correctly identify which are good posts and one that is correct... and whether it's possible for someone with admin rights to change those markers.

After they are used up, that's all there are for that thread.

Question... can an OP answer themselves and give points to their own post?

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LEGEND ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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Why can't ratings (or thank yous, or whatever it might be called) be linked to the person who issued them? When someone is banned from the system, all his data can be removed -- including the ratings (good or bad) which he provided.

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Advisor ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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So much for it being a User forum. Sounds like you want a "regulars" forum that works only how You want it. There are other opinions. And louder opinions are rarely better opinions, in my experience. Who at adobe has said they are turning on a rating system?

Relax.

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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>The big question is whether the average OP is going to be able to correctly identify which are good posts and one that is correct

Yup.

>Question... can an OP answer themselves and give points to their own post?

The ultimate absurdity. :/

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LEGEND ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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>Dave, correct me if I'm wrong... but the rating system this software uses is that the original poster is allowed one correct and two good answers. No one else has a voice at all.

I took a quick look at the docs you linked to, and it looks to me that the number of ratings is customizable.

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Guest
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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>t. If you forget to give a rating someone always pops up to remind you to rate the answer. Very annoying.

yea, i can see how that might get annoying fast...

>Dave, correct me if I'm wrong... but the rating system this software uses is that the original poster is allowed one correct and two good answers. No one else has a voice at all.

I didn't read that far into the system docs, but from what i've read about it via googling the rating system i think anyone can mark a good answer.

IF it turns out that only the OP can rate in a thread (i don't think so but... ) then i'm against it too. turn it off all together.

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Guide ,
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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Curt Wrigley,

Care to specify whom you are addressing in #224 before epithets start flying around unnecessarily?

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Guest
Mar 05, 2009 Mar 05, 2009

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http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/05/31/22TCclearspace_1.html

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