Urgent question: forum or newsgroup?

Report · Mar 17, 2009

I am trying to convince Spanish speaking users "from the other side" (ex MM forums in Spanish) to post here their opinions about the changes that are almost here, but have not been succesful. All of them do not use browsers as such to access the forums, and they seem convinced that they are participating, not in a forum, but in a newgroup, housed but not controlled by Adobe. In fact, in the topic lists they are identified as "newsgroup users" while browser users are identified by their screen names.

One of the oldest and most respected participants there has just posted a message in which he states that NNTP users do not access those forums through the Adobe site, so they don't need an Adobe ID, just an email address which doesn't even have to be a real or existing one.

I find this strange, as it would discriminate against those of us using normal browser access. I cannot post in there if I'm not a registered Adobe user, and that means that at some stage I have to provide a valid email address, an identificator (the Adobe ID), and a screen name. But he insists that they don't have to register and have never done.

Could someone please clarify this matter for me?

Report · Mar 17, 2009

Since the new forum will not have newsgroup access... why does it matter?

http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?128@@.59b7e5d1

Report · Mar 17, 2009

Claudio,

The Adobe forums can be accessed via newsreader through a variety of news servers, not just Adobe's.

For instance, my ISP has its own news server featuring the Adobe forums. If I access the Adobe forums through them rater than through Adobe's Newsgroup server, I can do so without an Adobe ID.

The downside to that is that my messages posted that way will not be visible on the web interface. Indeed, accessing the Adobe forums that way shows you more posts that you can read on the web forums, because of what I've just explained.

Additionally, any posts deleted, censored or edited by forum hosts are freely accessible both through NNTP and the various web sites that mirror the Adobe forums, such as Google groups. For that reason, slanderous posts are beyond the reach of the forums hosts, even if they deleted them nearly instantly over here. >:(

Report · Mar 17, 2009

If you access the Adobe forums through an auxiliary/mirror news or web
server you are really only dealing with an imperfect copy of the forums,
since the auxiliary server doesn't have posting rights to the original
server. There are literally dozens of such sites. You can find them by
searching for your name and see it pop up in unexpected places.

On the Macromedia side, formal signing in has not been necessary with
nttp side access.

Mike

Report · Mar 17, 2009

Yes, I was following tht thread also, and was aware of what you say.

It does matter for me because it's one of the excuses that people over there use for not showing any interest in the changes in the forums: they say that they don't want to be individualized by Adobe. I find this a childish excuse, and I want to know if they have to be registered Adobe users to post using NNTP. If they are wrong and they had to register the first time even if it was many years ago, then their excuse is not only childish, but also stupid.

Report · Mar 17, 2009

>I want to know if they have to be registered Adobe users to post using NNTP.

No.

Report · Mar 17, 2009

Well, thanks to all of you who have clearly answered my question. I must say that this comes as a complete surprise for me; I thought registration was compulsory regardless.

Report · Mar 18, 2009

Those users might want to show some concern. Adobe may well pull the plug on those newsgroups. There are other NNTP options, in the comp and alt domains, but the adobe domain may well disappear when the change happens. At any rate it will not be linked to the web forums, and newbie questions are going to drop dramatically.

Report · Mar 18, 2009

I don't go to any Adobe newsgroups, but I will GUESS that questions asked there, even after the change here, will be answered as they are now... by others who use newsgroups

Even if the forums here completely disappear from the newsgroup feed, I would think that "something" will still show in the various newsgroup subjects

Speaking of which... I know that this place is supported by Adobe... but just who does it and how is the entire newsgroup structure supported?

I've scanned the groups (have used Free Agent and now Agent to support that company) and there are many thousands... I've never been asked to donate any money, so just can't figure out how the structure is maintained

Report · Mar 18, 2009

Adobe pays for the cost of maintaining the forums, including the wage of the Forum Manager. Everything from the forums is set to send out via NNTP. From there it's out in the wilds. What happens once posts leave the Adobe server is not in Adobe's control.

I've wondered whether one reason that they are quitting the NNTP feed is to slow down or stop other peoples use of forum posts in ways that Adobe doesn't intend. Couldn't blame them if so... to pass information into what is no more then advertising sites that try to make money by using other people's content, to me, is inappropriate, but I see it all over, and don't like when that stuff mucks up google results for me.

Report · Mar 18, 2009

> I would think that "something" will still show in the various newsgroup subjects

having popped into the google groups view of the photoshop win forum on occasion - most of the subjects have to do with buying and selling... things...

Report · Mar 18, 2009

dave_milbut wrote:
> having popped into the google groups view of the photoshop win forum on occasion - most of the subjects have to do with buying and selling... things...
>

That's because of the web access of Google Groups.
Jay

Report · Mar 18, 2009

>I've wondered whether one reason that they are quitting the NNTP feed is to slow down or stop other peoples use of forum posts in ways that Adobe doesn't intend

that could be too. i've seen myself echoed hundreds of times on photoshop boards i've never heard of because all they do is repackage the adobeforum streams, then, of course, they sell their own advertising on top of it.

Report · Mar 18, 2009

ah. :)

Report · Mar 18, 2009

> how is the entire newsgroup structure supported?

My understanding is that it is supported in the same way that the Internet itself is supported. If you want to host a newsgroup, you just link into the automated software. There are rules for putting up new groups in the .comp domain (and most other domains) ... basically you have to get a petition and/or election thing to get in. The one exception to this is the .alt domain, where anyone can start anything (and thus the weird sex stuff winds up there).

Then there are corporate domains. The .macromedia domain died when the merger happened (Macromedia did not have web forums, only NNTP). Those became .adobe groups (Adobe had both web forums and NNTP domains). That is why I suggested that the .adobe domains might go away.

So basically, any costs related to hosting the domains, with the exception of the corporate ones, are borne by your local ISP, when they decide to offer NNTP services.

(Note: It's been a while since I've been involved in NNTP, so if any of this is changed, or I got it wrong through bad memory, or possibly stupidity, then I apologize.)

Report · Mar 18, 2009

>want to host a newsgroup, you just link into the automated software

Ok... so if I wanted to host a group on fly fishing lure tying using ONLY silk thread, I could just rent space from my ISP and, once I figured out how to create the link, put my group into the ALT area without anyone's permission

>the .alt domain, where anyone can start anything (and thus the weird sex stuff winds up there)

Yeah... I've seen a lot of ALT groups, including the sex stuff, so I wonder who's paying for the server space for those?

Anyway, I see what you mean about the Adobe domain may be going away on newsgroups... if Adobe isn't going to provide server space, and they own the domain, those links just go away

Report · Mar 19, 2009

If you actually want to create an alt newsgroup, you might want to go to http://nntp.aacity.net/ and read up on it.

Report · Mar 23, 2009

A bit of history from an old and current NNTP user (FidoNet, Usenet, and other private news servers). [Edit: The newsgroups Claudio was asking about] are hosted on forums.macromedia.com. They were in use and very active years before Macromedia added that nasty FuseTalk Web application. No login was ever required to read and post to that server. You can point your newsreader application to that server, download its list of newsgroups, and begin reading/posting in any group. The Web application simply reads from, and posts to the news server - munging code and message headers along the way. But if you want to use the Web access, you do have to use a login. If you never registered software at the former Macromedia site, you would need to create a new login for this. (I don't recommend it.) Or they may have had a separate login, I don't recall, exactly. Adobe has a separate NNTP server, adobeforums.com, that I believe was also around before the WebX application provided HTTP access. It does not require login to read the messages with a newsreader, but if you want to post to that server with a newsreader, you do have to login with an Adobe ID. Most newsreader programs provide a way to do that. Neither of these servers are really considered part of Usenet. While they do make their feeds available to other news servers*, they do not get newsfeeds from other servers. That is why sites such as groups.google.com (formerly dejanews.com) can archive the posts for posterity, but cannot post to these newsgroups. * I /think/ adobeforums.com may have discontinued this practice. That's how it went to the best of my recollection tonight. <Warning: newsgroup .sigfile follows> -- Mark A. Boyd Keep-On-Learnin' 🙂

Report · Mar 23, 2009

The term which you are referencing on the Adobe NTTP groups its called Authentication. Authentication requires that you fill out a user name, then a password. In Mozilla products you can have password manager if you let it it would require saving username, and password separate from then on then the server polls for username Mozilla products automatically sent. You never saw the request again.

Report · Mar 23, 2009

Login<=>authentication, tomatoe<=>tomahto in this case.

Mozilla is certainly not unique in that feature. Nor were they the first.

Every newsreader program I've ever used allows you to enter your credentials if required when configuring a server connection. Very much...VERY much... like an email client. In fact, some newsreaders come with POP3 client capabilities built in, and some POP3 email clients also have NNTP capabilities. Not uncommon at all.

Report · Mar 23, 2009

Wasn't saying that Mozilla products are the only ones to have the feature. Its just on Mac's the only major choices of Mail Programs are: Mozilla Products, Apple Mail, or Entourage.

Report · Mar 23, 2009

Sending out to NNTP is built into the WebX software. So the software came first. John just had to set up the newsgroup names and it was good to go.

Report · Mar 24, 2009

I'm not following that logic at all, but you may be right anyway. I probably wasn't aware of the Web forum when I started reading the NNTP newsgroups. Of course, if WebX came first, he had to do a lot more than just set up newsgroup names in the software :)

[Edit: deleted NNTP quote :)]

Report · Mar 24, 2009

I know it's more complex in the background, what I was saying is that Web Crossing had it all set up behind the scenes to work with their software, and all John had to do was to give each forum a news group name, and the rest happened like magic.

Report · Mar 24, 2009

That "magic" leads me to believe that the NNTP server was already up
and running and, if my recollection is accurate, already being used.
You don't configure NNTP to work with HTTP, but rather the other way
around. WebX, FuseTalk, and other Web apps are configured/programmed to
communicate with NNTP servers.

Perhaps the Adobe Web forums and newsgroups all came online at the same
time.

Not that any of this really matters one way or another. Just a bit of
trivia about the history of the forum/newsgroup.