P: Detailed Report: Premiere Pro 2024 has Some Severe UI Issues

Thanks for working on all this, of course. My 3960x desktop in Win10, and NY 4 year old Acer laptop are both running without some of these lagging things you and some others are clearly getting.

The one thing that stood out in your post was a mention of Windows performance optimization and memory settings. I know there's a setting that Windows can at times choose to apply to "optimize memory use and resources" that other people have posted severely limits Premiere performance.

I've also read of a couple Mac "optimization" options that... ain't.

It's difficult for most of us users to know about that stuff.

UPDATE 2.0

GOOD NEWS:

This issue has been picked up by the adobe team again.
The fix we have found is a temporary fix that (if implemented) should boost timeline performance ALL AROUND.
every user experiencing this or not should recieve a much smoother timeline expeirence
as the issue we have found is with the way premiere caches the timeline.

if this is optimised correctly theres a massive amount of timeline performance left on the table
and in turn this also helps this bug. we are seeing about a 2x increase in timeline performance. (at least in my testing)

This change has been implemented for testing and the results showed some issues with how the timeline draws items. so this fix may not come around and may be thrown all together but ive been told people are at the least looking into it.

NEW FINDINGS:
it LOOKS like ive found the cause of this bug. and unlike my previous comments. it may not even be AMD related and might have a bit more to it. as my intel machine experiences this.
and that has integrated graphics so i must throw my old "this is integrated graphics" theory out the window.

i FINALLY FOUND the patch notes for 23.5
and this finding opened my eyes completely to the issue at hand
this update HEAVILLY Featured timeline "enhancements" now i dont doubt these were intended to be enhancements. but i doubt that they actually work as enhancements on all machines and more testing should have been done behind these said enhancements.

lets refer to the change notes in question:

Improved timeline scrubbing and playback
We’ve continued to make optimizations to the timeline, so dragging the playhead always feels smooth and precise.
[This could be the issue. but playhead dragging doesnt seem to be a problem for most its the scrolling.]

Fixed Audio dropouts or missing waveforms could occur during playback of sub-clips if the timeline was zoomed in to frame level.
[This also could be a route of the issue. as its directly changing the way that the drawbot in the timeline code rendered audio dropouts/missing waveforms. maybe a refreshing tactic was used here that wasnt very usefull]

Fixed Scrolling the timeline could be slow or laggy.
[As this is directly related to timeline scrolling this may be the issue]

Expanding the timeline vertically on a high-res monitor timeline could cause timeline performance issues.
[Now we get to this one. i think this has the highest possibility of causing an issue. as its only high res monitors that it lags really bad on. if i drop my monitor to 1080 its a lot better. or with scaling at 200% its simply once the monitors resolution is on default and 100% scaling that issues get caused.]
[now i imagine this is due to the way the timeline renders items. lower the ui scaling the more pixels it has to render the more it takes for the timleine to shrink before it stops rendering elements.]

Windows machines now have optimized GPU memory utilization
[this also rings alarm bells in my head. i think possibly an issue with this NEW gpu memory utilisation could be interfearing with my hardware and others hardware. so quite possibly this is a gpu issue NOT a cpu issue as we have been suspecting all along]

Enabling Duplicate Frame Markers could degrade timeline performance. 
[now unlike others. going back to this update and checking this. it doesnt actually cause any performance issues for me. the thing that DOES though is "display fx" and "display proxy" 
the worst offender being the proxy. the proxy tick on causes the timeline in 2023 23.4 to be as slow as 23.5
but as obvious as it may seem. turning this option off in 23.5 doesnt fix the issue. nor does turning off ALL timeline settings to be fair
my assumption may be that a new attribute was added to clips in 2023 23.5 that COULD BE invisable. but is still rendered and doesnt react well with some users hardware]

OTHER THINGS TO NOTE:
Timeline Performance dips on my machine simply by locking tracks. this is worse in 23.5 but IS STILL present in 23.4
so its very obvious what this issue is. its simply an issue with rendering the timeline on some hardware. and timeline elements. 

something to do with the way locked tracks works, the way proxy badges work, and the way the timeline in rendered specifically changed between 23.4 and 23.5 has caused issues. 

this issue has gotten worse. and worse. as more elements use this broken way of rendering. so the most recent update is much slower than 23.5. as the more and more changes are made the more it breaks

Heres My Guess
for analogies sake lets name timeline Rendering For A Second.
Timeline Rendering from 23.4 we can call Apple Rendering
Timeline Rendering from 23.5 we will call EnhancedApple Rendering
[this is my own naming]

So in 23.4 apple rendering was used. like every update before
i think EnhancedApple rendering was developed round about the time that locked tracks were added or proxy badges were added. as this also has the issue

i imagine EnhancedApple rendering was made to simply optimise the rendering of more complex items in the timeline. without dropping performance

EnhancedApple Worked on the testing machines. but NOT to everyone else. the reason this wasnt discovered before is that EnahncedApple was only usually used on proxy badges, and locked tracks. features people on the hardware its unoptimised for caused issues but only temporary.

But i imagine something on the timeline. specifically clips. were moved from the old Apple rendering and "upgraded" to the new way of "Enhanced Apple" rendering. or at least SOME elements were moved over
this meant that the timeline was more efficiently rendered for most. but for the rest. it was worse.

This "Enhanced Apple" rendering or attributes of such that arent optimised for all need to be found and locked down


PROOF THAT THIS BUG IS VERSION SPECIFIC:
Here are some links to form posts that show this issue right at the time of 23.5's release
and directly also say switching to 23.4 is the only fix.
Link 1: This also uses the Ryzen 9 3950x CPU. so we can add that to the list of cpus that arent optimised. or the Nvidia 3070ti GPU but i imagine its more complex than that. maybe a specific brand or type.

Link 2: This one is on mac which adds more to my theory.
i imagine that the issue appeared on most machines. and the fixes that were used on mac to make sure its not an issue now. are the same fixes that must be applied to some windows hardware. so i think finding this issue would be easy by simply looking at how some of these other issues were fixed. and simply appling the same rules to patching the pc bugs.

Link 3: This one is on an M1. again refer above to my notes on this segnificance.
[unrelated note. i notice the dalek pfp adobe has. i like that hehe]

Link 4: in the comments of this reddit post you can see others talking about this issue appearing under a post talking about the timeline performance "improvements" in the change notes.

Link 5: This also shows issues with m1's and simple macbooks. i think again updates were made to support mac hardware but those same updates must be made to some pc hardware
 
I also imagine a lot of people havent reported this because most people already had issues with premiere round about 2023. and this would have been the nail in the coffin to cave to the "switch to DaVinci" trend. which i sadly did too. when this bug came around.


WHAT MUST BE DONE FROM HERE:
This bug is linked to something. even if we do not find the cause of it in hardware we must find the software cause coded into premiere. 
im not sure to go about this but heres how we fix this step by step made simple for the adobe employees.
so as we all know this issue is specific to machines.

machines to which in the office they "dont experience" and i do. 
best way forward would be for adobe employees to:

1. Enter the repository. Go back to June 2023. Look SPECIFICALLY into the changes below.

• Improved Timeline Scrubbing and Playback
  
• Dropouts/Missing Waveforms When Timeline Zoom Fix
• Fixed Timeline Scroll Lag 
• High-res Monitor Timeline Performance Fix
• Optimized GPU Memory Utilization

2. Once all of these have been found. AND the code behind them is found. the best plan of action is to create a custom release of premiere to send to me. this custom release could be either:

• Premiere Pro 2023 23.5 (Build 56)
  
• Premiere Pro 2024 Beta

3. The custom build would feature these settings that would be very simple to develop into the code:

• Simple Toggles For EACH Feature listed above.
• This can be in the Debug Database OR in the Preferences as Toggle Buttons. 
  

4. with this build sent off to me i could simply install it on my machine. and test each feature on and off. and then show what specifically is causing the issue. at this point we should be able to highlight what "Enhanced Apple" ACTUALLY IS. and troubleshoot a final fix for everyone experiencing this bug.

as i cannot do this myself. id need the help of developers and im unsure on how to go about that. @Kevin-Monahan or @Trent Happel may be able to help me with this?

i am willing to put the work in to find this bug so if theres ANY way for external contact that would be amazing. somewhere where i can actually help to the developement and fixing of this bug. i understand company policy but ill sign whatever NDA or Contract required to get me in a place where i can find the bug myself. as this bug is heavily effecting me and other people i know.

ive been in and out trying to decompile files but obviously i cant. trying to find any dlls that may have caused this issue or ones that have issues with them and i simply cant find anything. other than a bunch i know its nothing to do with.

ive tried IDA, WinMerge, dnSpy, Depends22, ProcessExplorer, BeyondCompare.

With everything i physically cannot find anything. im trying my best. it would just be so much easier if i was able to take even the smallest peak at some source code. or dev code as i know id be able to find the bug and report it within an evening

so please please please. i will sign anything at this point. take my legs!! haha
but please let me have a gander at something official so i can find some sort of issue. if not. the custom build is also something i can settle with.

but it saves everyone at adobe time if i find it myself as im already dedicating so much time to this

To update everyone else on this. as its been over a month since this has been opened. and ive been in contact with people for the past month (first of all if any of this post comes off as confruntational or nasty. its just a misread of tone haha! my tone intention is very "hey this. but it is what it is man oh well! haha" type of attitude)

ive done TONS and TONS of research into this. every single day i have woken up. got to the pc. tried to edit. doesnt work. and then i continue to troubleshoot this bug for about 12 hours

im unsure whats wrong with it. but through all my testing my GUESS is its a mix of premiere pros bad ui optimisation. (which during my research i also found. round about the same time premieres issues popped up with timeline performance. ironacally after effects suffered very simular effects with the timeline) (yes ive read every single form page and type of software listed as "slow ui" that adobe produces and even old games to try see if fixes work here... they dont)
(even microsoft flightsimulator and ghost recon wildlands... idk man i was at a loss hashaha!)

We found something to do with the way premiere caches the timeline. to be an issue. but in reality i think it just eases the issue enough to subside the issue.
i found this issue 1 week after this post was made. bout a month ago. it has been reported but no official change has been made. and ive been told it may not change at all. which is fun but i understand that!

i have delved into it more. and i think its something to do with premieres ui's reliance on single threaded code. mixed with bad optimisation for a group of cpus. ones effected ive found are:

5950x
5900x
i7-8750H  (or whatever the laptop one is lmao)

theres only one thing that has improved the issue outside of my homemade fix that works and thats slightly upping singlecore performance. but even at that the performancce increase is minimal

my GUESS is that some of these cpus have features that interfear with premiere. and ontop of it that the premiere uis reliance on single thread causes a MASSIVE issue. especially when inspecting some of the code that is within the broken subsystem. with code dating back to the early 2000s still in this version of premiere. it could be that also as pcs really aint built for that no more.

to be honest i dont know if anything will ever be fixed here as ive given the most in depth research to the adobe team and 1 month later no change has been made at all and i feel like im shouting into a dark pit. ive gone through every single in depth fps difference on the panel with the nvidia control panel. and its effect on it. doccumented ALL of this in a spreadsheet and sent it off

changed literally every bios setting i physically can. doccumented this and sent it over

ive read every single reddit post and adobe community post with "user interface" or "ui" mentioned.

i even suggested a slider for timeline "draw distance" so you could tell premiere to load LESS clips when you zoom out as i think that would help a LOT of this issue.

but the reality is. until someone picks this up inside adobe. which will unlikely happen. its mostlikely as its only a handfull to a town of processors that it effects. its most likely gonna sit at the bottom of the bug form where nobody really picks it up.

the only thing ive seen from anyone and everyone ive talked to. the ONLY fix is buying a high end intel chip. 
as those dont suffer this issue.

which for just the equivelent for my amd part im prob spending about £800/900 on a new mobo. new cpu, new cooler, new ram. 

and with a baby on the way, this really is gonna put a dent not in just my pocket but my childs early life. which sucks! 😞 especially when i cant work to make said money in the first place cause this bug so heavily effects me day to day on both my machines. but its kinda a case of damned if i do. damned if i dont. but hey it is what it is!

but i really hope one day this can be fully fixed. but my hopes are low. if i worked at adobe id have this fixed haha! im not saying hire me im just saying man i wish i could do something about this. 

im sorry to everyone whos had this bug or suffered from it. i understand its a big fork in the road. and i promise im trying my best to get something on the move here and find a solution. with me having adhd moving around the timeline is the only thing that keeps my brain engaged to the work too so its a big debilitating factor so trust me i know how annoying this must be to some.

the option to go back to 2023 is tempting but without the background autosave its hard to tally up with the crashes.
again damned if i do damned if i dont.
and man i cant even read any of my tabs the amount of forms im reading daily.

on a positive note with all this troubleshooting my pc has caused my pc to be the fastest its ever been in its lifetime or in any pc ive ever owned. chrome loads INSTANTLY when i hit enter. on a search. which is so weird i have to check if ive actually searched or accidently clicked back page on my mouse haha!

i think with that knoledge i know its NOT a windows issue. or a cpu issue. or a bios issue.  its simply something on the end of adobe that must be fixed on their end

my "home made" solution to this DOES WORK! 
but it undoes its self every single time you make a new track or swap timelines. and is VERY tedious to apply. 
another issue with my fix is it requires you to mess with variables that are against the rules to suggest here. so i cannot tell you at all how i fixed it. on my end. or it would be removed.

but the fix is VERY temp and goes away literally if you fart too close to the timeline.so the perminant fix would need to be adobe side. 

last i heard is it was implemented. but not pushed. more research had to be put into it to make sure it didnt break anything
my imagaining is. its never coming and it did work. or it worked and broke something and its been updated as a incorrect fix and nothing will be done anyways. 

i dont mean to sound hopeless here cause i really do hope theres a light at the end of the tunnel here. it would make my year. and my unborn childs.

but after a month on this my hopes are quite low. i think adobe need to invest some money buying out a pc that matches my spec and trying it out to reproduce the error on their end. tbh it wouldnt cost them much! (in consideration haha!) (just sell it afterwards lol)

one day a stride will be made. just not today. or this year. possibly next year.

For me it started since 23.4
Win10 up to date
DDR4 3000 32(4x8)GB
i7 6800k 6core 4ghz
Asus x99A II
MSI GTX 1080 8g
Drivers - old and new

Can confirm. The issue is gone but the program monitor seems to be stuck to a locked framerate almost. Its definetly better than the alternative  though! 

We believe we have improved the Motion Direct Manipulation performance in the Program Monitor. This should be available in 24.4 beta build 19+

You're most welcome, @Aiden Soave.

I hope that the effort you made here will benefit the community. The bug report is well done and a model for other community members to use.

I'm glad you are getting some traction with the bug by confirming that someone has already contacted you. I'm always available via PM if you need to message me. I will be your advocate on this fix.

Excellent performance is a mission-critical goal of the team, and anything that would help them achieve that for editors like yourself would be an outstanding achievement. Thanks again for volunteering your time to help find a solution.

Take care, and have a great weekend.

Thanks,
Kevin

thank you so much @Kevin-Monahan. i have someone contacting me currently but i havent heard back from them for a day. im happy to be private messaged by any adobe employee that would ever need any input of mine! i know im not working for adobe but ill happily dedicate any time needed to solving this as its been something i think the community as a whole will benifit off of once fixed. thank you so much for filling out a bug report for me

Mod note: The content of this post was deleted. Adobe Engineering asks that you do not discuss altering the settings of the internal engineering tools. These are not to be altered or changed by users. Do so at your own risk.

Hi @Aiden Soave,

The information you posted previously was moved to the internal bug I just filed on your behalf. The engineering staff will be able to read your observations. I hope that's OK.

Thanks,

Kevin