Drop Frames in Premiere with good PC. What is happening ?

[Frango_Jones]

Hi guys good morning !

I'm going to the forum because I don't know what to do anymore.

I've been trying to solve the Drop Frame problem for over a year now when using 4K 30/60 videos within the première. My point is not to reduce playback quality or proxy because then I don't see much point in building a good PC for editing, spending money on a good video card and then having to lower the quality or having to proxy, but let's situation and file types:

Recording Devices: DJI Osmo Pocket, Panasonic LX100, Panasonic GX85
Fps: 30-60
Resolution: 4K (3840x2160)
Codec: MP4
Duration: 1 to 8 minutes
Playback Quality: Maximum
My monitor resolution: 4K with upscalling to 175%
Processors tested: Ryzen 1600, 1700, 2700, 2700x, 3600 and Intel i5 9600k (all overclocked and overclocked)
Motherboard: Several tested
Video Card: GTX 1070 Ti
Memory: 64gb DDR4 between 2400 Mhz to 3000 Mhz
Discs: 2 SSD M.2 NVME x4
Premiere: All versions of Pro (current 13.1.3 - Build 44)

Procedure:

I upload the video to the timeline
I apply a layer of Lumetri
I apply a transition effect like Cross Zoom

READY ... Just enough for the video to start crashing when playing back playback ...

Already tried to change driver, reinstall windows, install codec package but nothing ....

It's been over a year since I changed configuration several times going through AMD and then returning to Intel which they say is better in the case of Premiere and nothing ....

Does anyone have any idea what it might be or some test I can do to try and solve this? It is not possible that anyone working with 4K files inside the premiere cannot fluently edit with a PC as described.

If anyone can help, I appreciate it.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Frango,

Sorry for the performance issues. That sounds frustrating. It sounds like a few issues may be causing your bottleneck, but you should also know that your expectations may be set a little too high for the system you are working with. I suggest that you might look at making a few compromises.

• Transcode the most highly compressed footage with Render and Replace; drone footage for example.
• Place media cache on a high speed drive besides the boot drive.
• Place preview files on a high speed drive.
• Purchase a more powerful graphics card ~12 GB VRAM.
  • 8GB for 4K is OK for recommended system requirements
  • That said, it is not enough for heavier workflows, highly compressed footage, high frame rates
• Run basic maintenance, such as, deleting existing media cache
• Disable High Quality Playback

The reason that I say you probably have to make compromises because playing back and working with 4K Long GOP media is extremely taxing, even on somewhat powerful systems like yours. Add on a 60 fps frame rate along with drone footage that is probably H.265 footage, some of the most highly compressed footage existing today. iPhone footage is in the same boat. These are likely the reasons for your bottleneck.

Please try some of these things in order to have a smoother workflow. The main thing I would recommend would be to transcode your files, but it sounds like you do not want to do that. Sorry.

In conclusion, you did purchase a pretty good setup, I'm afraid you need something even more powerful if you want Premiere Pro to meet your every expectation regarding performance.

We can also set you up with our techs who can troubleshoot your system, if you like. Let us know if you'd like to do that.

Thanks,
Kevin Monahan

[Ann Bens]

If I were you I would still consider Proxies 

Your recording devices produce highly compressed footage and that is the culprit.

If you would record intraframe opposite to avc long gop it would a much easier format to edit.

[Frango_Jones]

I believe my devices do not have this option to record without GOP compression. I will download some 4K file that does not use Long GOP to be able to test on my current system because I can not stand trying to make my edits and whatever I add effect or LUT already starts to lock everything. It's bad to edit this way.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Yes, I agree with you Ann.

Kevin Monahan

[R Neil Haugen]

In case you aren't aware of what long-GOP media is, it's created in cameras by specialized chips, so it dramatically cuts down on the time and space needed to write files to card.

It works by only making a very few complete frames. It used to be a complete frame every 9-15 frames. Now, your drone may very well use partial complete frames, so perhaps it could be up to 120 frames between real complete frames.

Every other frame is only a data set or matrix of 1) the pixels that will change before the next complete i-frame, 2) the pixels that have changed since the last i-frame, or 3) BOTH.

This requires a truly massive amount of CPU/RAM work to pull up, decode and decompress, store to RAM, pull up next "frame", recall previous frame from RAM, compute new frame  rinse and repeat.

I have colorist friends with machines that make your system look like a kids toy. They routinely run 6k RED with maybe 20 nodes in Resolve. Ship them 4k long-GOP, they're gonna transcode it.

Or at the least, make proxies. So pros with massive machines routinely t-code or proxy ... I don't understand your question with it.

It's Reality.

Neil

[Frango_Jones]

Neil, I'm sorry but I asked precisely because I can not understand how people, especially youtubers can edit 4K video smoothly. There are several videos on youtube showing how premiere and intel work well with 4K files including showing that an i7 8700K + 1080 ti station for example is sufficient for this job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mgCk3wJDVE

[Frango_Jones]

Kevin, thank you so much for your dedication in your response.

I only use H.264 files here despite having tested Gopro Hero7 Black H.265 files.

I set up a PC for N research-based 4K video editing. I live in Brazil and there is a production company that says quietly edit in 4K on Premiere using only Ryzen 2600 with video card up to 4GB so I was wondering how I could edit and I with my slightly better system not able to.

I wondered if it was the question of which monitor I use with upscalling since using native 4K on a 28 "monitor gets very small even though the desktop gets huge. Maybe the issue of upascalling was limiting performance as it constantly reworking the screen to show me the 175% zoom I set (I don't know if it was clear.) But finding that, I lowered the monitor resolution to 1080p to see if that was the problem and was unsuccessful, the drop frames continued.

I had heard about the file compression issue but I have never studied it thoroughly. I'm a videomaker filming music bands so 4K @ 60 fps files are pretty big ... To proxy all this is a lot of work ... I would have to leave the proxy overnight to be able to work the next day.

Another issue is that file playback within the timeline is normal if I don't apply any lumetri effects or transitions, but when I'm editing I use this kind of thing.

I heard that Intel processors for having hardware acceleration via GPU (quicksync) would help a lot in this task, but unfortunately I went from a Ryzen 2700x to an i5 9600K and did not get positive results even though Intel is most recommended for Premiere.

[Ann Bens]

I edit 4K natively but then its Canon xf intraframe. I do set playback to 1/2. Occasionaly I have dropped frames.

[R Neil Haugen]

Although most of my work is web-headed, I don't pay much attention to the crowd. I've seen enough total barn slippery that I'm not that inclined to believe much of it.

There are TONS of things that can and will influence performance. One heavy user posted some time back he'd finally wiped, reformatted, reinstalled Windows, and then all the apps he'd had on his mach *except* he loaded Premiere first, Me second, and AfterEffects third. And got vastly improved performance.

The MS library file onedrive.dll has been a killer for some, never an issue for me. Why? Dunno.

Various "helper" apps like many laptops and even desktop motherboards want to install from gaming assistance to audio apps can both take huge hits of operating resources or interfere with an NLE.

So I pay more attention to the guys and gals who have serious machines and workflows and deadline needs. They only care about proven reliable reality.

And they t-code or proxy all sorts of media on machines that blow yours and mine out of the water.

Personally I just don't get the attitude that proxies or t-codes are somehow beneath one. Seriously. It's a standard part of nearly all professional workflows. I just don't get it.

Neil

[Frango_Jones]

Neil, as I said earlier, if this is normal among people who edit H.264 professionally then I don't have to worry ... If professionals use it, I will use it too. My question was precisely because of what people on the Internet, theoretically an i7 8700K with 32GB of memory and an 8GB video card with a good SSD would already be able to handle a fluid 4K edition without gagging, and that's what I was based on. to try to find out why here I can not edit smoothly. A 1 minute H.264 video at 4K 60 Fps was generating me almost 3000 skipped frames .. I found a lot in front of my pc that I have here.

[Guest]

I too am having trouble playing back native H.264 DJI Drone footage on systems that are entirely capible of doing so. 

Posted UserVoice: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro/suggestions/38660788-fix-h-264-decode-p...

[Frango_Jones]

In my specific case they are Osmo Pocket files but being DJI device files, I imagine the encoding is the same or similar.

[R Neil Haugen]

There's always a huge difference in what different rigs can do. I've seen people who could run Resolve with a number of nodes without any issue on a laptop, but Premiere stuttered. For my gear, Resolve is always more prone to stuttering with media during playback. Why? Heck if I know.

I routinely communicate with a number of people in video post around the world daily. And besides participating here, am on the LGG forum (mainly a colorists hangout) daily. You wanna see monster machines, sheesh ... 20+ cores, 6-8 massive GPUs, several huge RAID arrays, very spendy rigs.

And even there, when they compare say fps rendering tests in Resolve, they can get widely varying rates that often to me don't seem that much dependent on the particular hardware. The hardware is a large part of it, but clearly ... there are other difficult to nail down factors also.

So I deal in Realville. What works on X machine right now? If it handles 8k r3d files without stuttering, great. If not, t-code or probably better proxy. Same concept with any media. If that person is doing 'more', well, dandy for him and ... so what? I have work to get out today, so I just do what I know will work.

Neil

[Guest]

Neil, I get that it takes a huge buffer to play long GOP footage backwards, but I can play it backwards just fine in Telestream Switch, and as soon as I try to scrub the footage in Premiere at all, it blows up the media cache and causes multi-second FramePrefetchDelays even when I'm playing forwards. There is obviously a bug here that is being masked by the recommendations to use proxies.

Edited for clarity. 

[Frango_Jones]

Neil, really is an unknown. It's been over 1 year that I've been trading hardware here, having an absurd job between formatting machines, changing parts, time, money and nothing solves .. really very complicated ... I think I'll have to start working with proxy, won't have a way.

[R Neil Haugen]

JPooley ...

I can see no rhyme nor reason on why different rigs get vastly different playback experiences. And wow, the difference between one user's reports with X hardware and another user can be insane. No question.

I've read reports from people who's laptop runs Resolve supposedly remarkably better than my desktop. On my rig, Premiere is easier to edit in, Resolve needs to stop and think occasionally. Why those differences? No clue whatever.

So sure, it would be great if the engineers could nail that down for more users. Although a typical way to get a more consistent performance over a user-base is to place limits on particularly the hardware that is in use. Or with video post, limit the number of formats/codecs you work with. Apple of course chose this route for all their systems, severely limiting user choices in order to get a more consistent experience.

For the OP, well ... as I've said, I just go for what works. On my rig, now. Sometime this fall I'll be springing for a costly new beast. The media I'm working and my production needs have gone "up", so ... my hardware needs to be replaced to meet the new needs. NOT looking forward to the bill, but ... it will be better suited to my current workflow.

Even with that new rig when it comes, if t-codes or proxies test faster with X media, I'll make them without stopping to think about it. Just getting stuff done.

Neil

[Guest]

I disagree with the notion that different rigs are getting vastly different playback experiences. There are numerous threads specifically complaining about long GOP H.264 decode performance in the newer versions. I am able to replicate the issue with DJI Footage and huge FramePrefetchDelays on both brand new 6 core Intel laptops, and older 32 core Xeon systems. It's too bad I can't download CC 2017 to prove that the footage plays back better on that version. Pugent systems has some relevant testing, but their new benchmark software means that a side by side comparison with the older tests isn't possible.

[R Neil Haugen]

I've seen the different playback reality of different rigs. Some rigs using Premiere do pretty good with most long-GOP, and some rigs don't. My older 6 core actually does pretty decent,  but we've had users on here with much beefier systems that drop far more frames when playing back and stutter a heck of a lot more than mine.

Again, I haven't a clue why. Over the last few years we've had several posters here that did various things to retrim their rigs and got great benefits. Others did exactly the same steps and got no help whatever.

Why? No clue.

Some people get much better playback in 2017 clearly.  I dont. Why? No clue. But I do know these differences aren't fake, they're real. And person that I am, I spend X amount of time gritching then go to figuring out how to just get the work out.

Others spend a lot longer gritching and sometimes can't seem to get back to work in whatever method works. I understand the frustration it's just that at some point I go what the bloody blazes and just get working.

I DO file the bug reports. I DO gritch at the engineers every NAB over many things that other users here have trouble with that I dont. And they still smile when they see me coming.  Knowing they're in for a long detailed earful.

All that said, the DJI drones push the limits of long-GOP in ever new and wondrous ways. I've seen a test report saying there are partial i-frames in use now, so full frames at times are even farther apart. So to show one section of a clip, the CPU/RAM is probably going to have to decode up to 100 frames either side of the clip frames seen on the sequence. That sort of work of course doesn't happen with intraframe codecs. The CPU/RAM only needs to decompress the specific frames used.

• Neil

[Frango_Jones]

I did a test converting a 5 minute 4K 60fps file from Osmo Pocket to DNxHR and the editing was fluid but it is a time to do the transcoding. I use a locked i5 9600k @ 5Ghz here ... I realize that using the file without doing the transcoding Intel GPU works fiercely and is almost always 100% when I'm going back and forth on the timeline. You are certainly trying to decode the thousands of frames that are there in the file. If I wait a while Intel GPU usage drops to 10% and I can perform the playback but soon it goes back to 100% and the crashes start. Why doesn't Premiere use the computing power of my GTX1070ti to do this job? And when I used the Ryzen 2700x was this charge all for him? It's very strange ... For a 5 minute video, it's okay to waste 20 to 30 minutes to transcode to DNxHR but for a bigger job it's pretty complicated ... and using proxyes things are no different as it will also do a great job to be able to use the files in Premiere. I never imagined it was so heavy to work with these files.

[R Neil Haugen]

Frango,

Knowing about the files and what sort of  load each type brings to the hardware and to the software is part of the learning curve for any video post-processing app. In the LGG forum, a colorist's hangout, they are constantly checking how many fps Resolve or Avid or Filmlight can process with X nodes in play versus other users with similar media.

The easiest media for any video post app are the 'heavy' intraframe format/codecs, Cineform, ProRes, and DNxHD/R. Next are some of the simpler log formats, then several other formats, and on down through say 8k RED r3d files to long-GOP files.

So for planning out your workflow, it pays to know the media and your hardware/software and how to get the best performance both for editing/corrections and for final exporting. No matter the app.

One of the tools to use is of course MediaEncoder, which installs alongside Premiere. You can use batch processes there that automatically work in the background but suspend operations if you're currently working in Premiere and need all the resources. You can set up "watch folders" with presets so any media dropped into them gets renamed to X process, t-coded to Y format/codec/settings, and placed in Z folder.

And if you use either batch or watched folders, you can have the queue start when you're leaving for lunch or done for the day, so it doesn't interfere with your actual working time.

Organizational details like that are a part of becoming a more efficient post-processing worker. No matter which app, which hardware, which media. I work some also in AfterEffects, which is *very* different mentally than Premiere. And Resolve, again *very* different from Premiere. They all need a different approach to the hardware, app, and media.

Neil

[Frango_Jones]

Neil, thank you so much for the excellent explanation. I do my editing as a hobby but I always really liked the video area. I'm a photographer and I ended up liking the video production area a lot (I'm a layman in the area, I can't say that I can use premiere since my work comes down to cuts, simple text and applying a LUT layer). When I set up my AMD Ryzen in early 2018, I only used 1080p files at 30 fps ... then I ended up buying Panasonic cameras because I wanted to shoot 4K for a variety of reasons. After the year 2018 and a lot of headache inside the premiere, I thought the problem was the CPUS and I ended up returning to Intel as there are a lot of people talking about support inside the premiere via Quicksync. I read several articles from Puget Systems that said the Intel system was more fluid to work specifically within the premiere. I did tests and really even at export time a 6-core 9600K beats a Ryzen 7 2700 that has more cores and more threads, but today, with this new vision that is passing me here, I seriously consider returning to AMD with a 3700x 8/16 because it's cheaper than a 9900K for sure and since both platforms are suffering from Long GOP files I think it's easier for me to get the cheaper hardware that gives me more Multitasking power for a better price. I'm going to start studying what is more worthwhile here. If it's working with a proxy or via DNxHR transcoding ... It's a shame that I discovered this only now because I spent more than 1 year changing hardware thinking this was the problem.

[R Neil Haugen]

It's all so freaking complicated, right? Sheesh.

I came out of a long career as a pro portrait photographer.We've had our studio over 40 years, but my last six have been nearly totally in video, mainly video post processing. I've learned so blasted much I didn't even know I needed to know! Much of it from the School of Very Blastedly Hard Knocks.

The new AMD gear is for the price starting to look interesting against the Intel use of the QuickSync CPU hardware. As I'm mostly working with BlackMagic Raw and ProRes, some mov, well ... QuickSync isn't as necesary in my workflow as it once was. So getting a new rig, and ... looking through Puget & Safeharbor docs and ideas. Will be interesting to see what I end up with.

Neil

[Frango_Jones]

Yes Neil I would not have returned to Intel had it not been for Quicksync. Honestly the first generation of Ryzen was losing a lot to the Intel. Second improved slightly but not significantly enough to beat intel on Single Thread, Floating Point and AVX2 instructions. In this third generation AMD is touching Intel at a lower cost but is still an immature platform before the blue giant. The worldwide installed Intel CPUS Base is much larger and because of that many applications are optimized to work with it, but frankly now with this view on the issue of files within the premiere, I'm finding more business going back to AMD and really, to Anyone who uses H.264 / H.265 files won't benefit from quicksync ... Intel's big asset specifically for Premiere is still this because most consumer cameras still use these codecs ... But here In Brazil many youtubers that I know use AMD systems and to "compensate" do editions in Vegas or Resolve because they know Premiere is not optimized. Last year I used a Codec called Voukouder (I don't know if you've heard) ... It accelerated the export a lot ... it was like a turbo for the video card since the premiere wasn't using its full potential. I have done a lot of testing here on both AMD / INTEL platforms and I can assure that quicksync depending on the situation gets up to almost 50% more export speed, being that Intel CPU clock is naturally higher ... AVX2 instructions are also faster even though in the third generation of Ryzen the distance has narrowed a bit. I believe it will not make a bad deal buying a 3rd Generation Ryzen. When I first bought my Ryzen, an R7 1700 felt a good performance slump inside Lightroom compared to my old i7 7700K, but today I believe the third generation is cost-effective.

[R Neil Haugen]

The reporting of test situations and results, especially the expected use implications discussed by both Puget and Safeharbor have gotten really fascinating. AMD is really working to close the gap, and in some ways for some workflows has. In others, some implications still give a nod to Intel. Especially, as you note, many apps are a bit more coded to take advantage of Intel hardware.

This newest generation of AMD CPUs will probably change that. I'm guessing within a year, the difference will be pretty minimal. I would expect to probably be still on an Intel platform later this fall, but ... well, depending on what Puget & Safeharbor have to offer, I do see it might be possible for me to select an AMD rig.

A year ago? Not on my life. Now? ... well, gotta look at things.

Neil