ADA Compliance

[Dee28407999w8d7]

I was part of a discussion on ADA Compliance but apparently Nancy O'Shea immediately locked the thread after ranting. That's not good.

Nancy,

Why are you so angry?

This is an issue where the disabled can benefit from ADA-compliant software.

The ADA is not just about websites.

Section 508 - biz will have a hard time providing DW for their disabled employees.

As stated, brick-n-mortar stores including B2B are not websites but subject to the ADA law.

Ask Netflix about that. They are not a real website per se. Dreamweaver in the cloud, well let the courts decide.

So, if Adobe would listen and adjust their software that is difficult in places, they would succeed even better than having Nancy grumble about not caring about the disabled and protecting Adobe. After all, the adjustment in their app is not that big of a deal to modify.

How about working with others and making a change for the better of society?

[Nancy OShea]

I'm not angry. 

• Your post was off topic.  It had nothing to do with the original discussion.
• As I said, Dreamweaver is NOT a website; it's software.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Accessibility_Guidelines
• No new features are planned for Dreamweaver.  It has been in minimal maintenance status since 2021.  It is what it is.

[B i r n o u]

• As I said, Dreamweaver is NOT a website; it's software.

By @Nancy OShea

I am interested in this debate, please let me ask two questions.

1 - Does this mean that Section 508 does not include software as part of ADA compliance but only websites that need to comply?

2 - I have always believed that Section 508 requires software to be accessible to people with disabilities, especially when provided by federal agencies. So, what if Dreamweaver is used by a communications department (well, through a CC account) in a government agency?

[Nancy OShea]

ADA (The Americans with Disabilities Act) differs from section 508. 

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) became law in 1990. The ADA is a civil rights law that prohibits discrimination against individuals with disabilities in all areas of public life, including jobs, schools, transportation, and all public and private places that are open to the general public. The purpose of the law is to make sure that people with disabilities have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else. The ADA gives civil rights protections to individuals with disabilities similar to those provided to individuals on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, age, and religion. It guarantees equal opportunity for individuals with disabilities in public accommodations, employment, transportation, state and local government services, and telecommunications. The ADA is divided into five titles (or sections) that relate to different areas of public life.

Title I = Equal Employment Opportunity

Title II = State & Local Government

Title III = Public Accomodations (schools, stadiums, public transit, restrooms, etc...)

Title IV = Telecommunications & Broadcasting (phones, closed captioning, regulated by the FCC)

In 1998, Congress amended the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 to require Federal agencies to make their electronic and information technology (EIT) accessible to people with disabilities. The law (29 U.S.C § 794 (d)) applies to all Federal agencies when they develop, procure, maintain, or use electronic and information technology. Under Section 508, agencies must give disabled employees and members of the public access to information comparable to the access available to others.  Section 508 includes forms, applications, help files, online documentation, manuals, PDF, Doc, RTF, etc...

https://www.section508.gov/manage/laws-and-policies/#508-policy

[pwrslm]

Regardless of what Dreamweaver does, the application of common sense must apply when it comes to ADA requirements. If you have a triple amputee that complains he cannot be a ditch digger, the guy should find a different job. The ADA does not require employers to create miracles. The Fed Govt cannot make something out of DW not being accessible to people who cannot navigate its UI. Just does not work like that because physical limitations are just that. 

Eye gaze technology can help, but not cure, the problem because eye gaze tech is not that great. There is research dealing with brain-computer-implanted tech that may solve the disability issue, but that's just in research. The moral of the story is that if you cannot manage the program with a keyboard (real or software) then you probably should not seek employment that requires you to work with DW. The same goes for any program and for any computer that someone with a disability can access. I have ALS, so the issue is moot to me.

[Nancy OShea]

I have ALS, so the issue is moot to me.

By @pwrslm

===========

I'm very sorry about your diagnosis.

My friend survived almost 10 years with ALS. He was good until COVID hit.

Live well and stay safe. 🤞

[B i r n o u]

We were talking about DW's user interface not being compliant with accessibility standards, and instead of addressing the issue, you tried to deflect the discussion by bringing up the history lesson on the ADA and Section 508, but I think you missed the point.

So when you were asked a direct question about the consequences of using such software in a government agency (point 2 of my last comment), you once again, as very often in sensible subject, chose to dodge the question and go off on another tangent. I mean, come on :).

Let's stick to the topic and have a productive conversation, a solution that ensures accessibility for all, shall we?

What about point 2... which seems to me to be basically the substance of the original post of @Dee28407999w8d7 ?

[Nancy OShea]

Dreamweaver is NOT receiving any new features.  It has been stagnant since 2021. So this discussion is futile.

Just for giggles, name or describe the accessibility features you think consumer software should be offering government agencies beyond what is already available from the computer's operating system?

With that in mind, please name any consumer code editor that currently provides those features?

[B i r n o u]

Dreamweaver is NOT receiving any new features.  It has been stagnant since 2021. So this discussion is futile.

By @Nancy OShea

Admittedly, DW is undergoing minimal maintenance.... but the discussion is not necessarily futile, and discussing user needs may lead to a solution, perhaps outside the scope of this forum. and after all, it wouldn't be the first time that topics have gone beyond DW.

but in saying that, I may be wrong... ? and I am sorry for that

Just for giggles, name or describe the accessibility features you think consumer software should be offering government agencies beyond what is already available from the computer's operating system?

With that in mind, please name any consumer code editor that currently provides those features?

By @Nancy OShea

I see that you may be a follower of Socratic irony, or perhaps it is simply an avoidance, a cop-out. Answering a question with a question... why not... but it doesn't bring much to the debate.

Anyway, personally, since @BenPleysier introduced me to VSC (thanks Ben 😉 ), as far as the code is concerned, I've turned to this tool, (as I always said, DW/Br/Fw) are still a wonderfill manager) and it's true that in terms of accessibility (in terms of the user interface, of course, because that's the question), it's taken care of and really listens to users...
So to answer your question, and rather than listing what could be studied to meet the expectations of people with disabilities ... I encourage you to read the article dedicated to VSC and its handling of accessibility within its user interface ... https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editor/accessibility all is said... or at least it's a real good start

does this answer your question?... but I'm still not sure about point 2, which you still haven't answered 😉

2 - I have always believed that Section 508 requires software to be accessible to people with disabilities, especially when provided by federal agencies. So, what if Dreamweaver is used by a communications department (well, through a CC account) in a government agency?

By @B i r n o u

[Nancy OShea]

Nothing new here. Dreamweaver provides the same (denoted by green checkmark).

View > Zoom in/out.  Or invoke keyboard shortcuts Ctrl ++ and Ctrl +-.  Works in CODE | DESIGN | LIVE view panels.

Windows key  with + sign invokes Windows Magnifier.  Apple OS and iOS have similar magnifiers.

Dreamweaver Preferences offers your choice of 4 dark to light app interface values. Code color theme options are also available from Preferences and can be customized by clicking the pencil icon to bring up the main.LESS file.

Many other high/low contrast Brackets themes are freely available on GitHub. 

• https://github.com/orgs/Brackets-Themes/repositories?page=1
• https://github.com/orgs/Brackets-Themes/repositories?page=2

Most menu items can be accessed with Ctrl + x keyboard commands or arrow keys. 

All that said, Dreamweaver will never be all things for all people.  It is a code editor that should be used alongside other tools. 

Any further discussion of accessibility for government offices is moot as most  government agencies in the U.S. use bespoke apps created to the agency's specific requirements.  Use of outside software that is not agency-approved  is frequently prohibited for security reasons.  It may be different in Europe but I don't think so.

[B i r n o u]

Maybe my English is not up to the task of understanding what is written, maybe I know DW badly.

Anyway, I have a completely different point of view about what the VSC document and accessibility tells me, or at least what I understand... and without using screenshots that eat up the whole commentary space, let me tells you what I got so far.

DW's zoom management only affects the code view, not the DW's user interface... which is not the case with VSC. A person who sees badly the code, sees certainly badly the menus, the dialogues, etc...

As for the Windows magnifying glass, it concerns Windows, not the software... and have you tried to use the Windows magnifying glass, which acts on all the screens (oh yes, sorry, as many developper, I use multiple screens)... and it's not at all ergonomic... if I zoom in on VSC, I don't necessarily want to zoom in on my entire desktop.

using a Dark theme, I feel like I'm confusing... using DW settings, sure the background is dark and you can play on two levels of dark, but what does that have to do with a high contrast theme, or with the complementary extensions that allow you to adjust the colours with a visual deficiency, and that are specially adapted?

What about adapting to full keyboard navigation?

What about adjusting the TAB navigation ?
What about screen reader optimisation?
What about the adaptation of warning messages and dedicated signage?

Specificaly, regarding colour adjustment and accessibility, what a paradox that Kuler is used, don't you think?
What about the inclusion of the terminal in the VSC interface, which also becomes fully accessible?
What about, and ... not to mention and ... etc... and so on... the liste is long... don't you think ?

As a result, no green check mark remains.... but the lampion of the good last one lights up... I know and use DW before it belongs to Macromedia... and believe me, you can't imagine how much I like this tool... proof is... I persist on this forum... but we owe it to ourselves to remain lucid... and preserve a real integrity to users, thread, and reality...

Clearly, regarding UI accessibility, don't you think that DW is far behind... it's so easy to recognize it...

Now the last point, and the main answer to the question, as for the use of this tool in government agencies, here in France... uh... all of them have a CC account... and thus have access to DW... and according to a large number of contacts on other Adobe forums with whom I often consult... it's the same across the Atlantic... CC is everywhere... so we come back to my initial question n°2... and so do the @Dee28407999w8d7 main question...  which cannot be evacuated with a nonchalant reversal of the sleeve... or by engaging in a parallel and entirely different debate ...

[Nancy OShea]

This is a dead space for a dying product.  And you're not talking to Creative Cloud developers here. 

If you have a burning desire to improve Creative Cloud accessibility, post your concerns for products that have active beta programs.

Creative Cloud Services

Creative Cloud Desktop

Acrobat

Photoshop Ecosystem

Illustrator

InDesign

Etc...

[Liam Dilley]

I am 100% with Nancy on this and I do not get the agressive nature of the chatter as well and I feel it is not a discussion.

- As Nancy has stated time and time again. DW is maintained and nothing else and it is more likely this will drop then any pickup. It is an out dated concept for software. This is why they have paused it as there are so many other solutions and more modern concept approaches. To redevelop DW to fit that is a lot of work and Adobe messed up with Brackets from initially paving the way for modern IDE's but then failing to push on with that. They also do not have their own CMS really any more and do not really have anyone at Adobe who knows how to properly enter and work a good Web strategy.

So there is literally no point putting any energy in such a push and especially getting overly pasionate on it on these forums and not to a community expert just stating the facts about the software.

- Nancy is also correct in terms of software and regulations for disabled etc. There are no solid foundations for this and you can basically rule out 99% of all software if you run on what you think the regulations are across the board. In terms of bare minimum requirements DW has supported that for a long time just as most other software has. Certain further regulations ONLY apply in the US and ONLY to software specifically created for government use of which DW is not and never has been.
-  WCAG is a nice thing to have but again only folowed up on for websites in certain industires. Most of your web is no where near compliant with only some sites even having the screen reader support. When you work on government sites (Of which I have here in Australia) then yes, you have to make a minimum requirement, lots of strict UI rules for the government pluys WCAG on top of that. But very specific use cases.

So a lot of the passionate dissucsion here literally is not the right place or will get anywhere. If you want to push both software and web standards for the disabled there are other means and places to go about that.

[osgood_]

Sorry, but l cant understand this topic at all. Dreamweaver is currently 'dead' as far as any future features being included is concerned. Move on if you don't like it, simple. VSC is still very much receiving updates so logically in my view that's where you should focus if you like that editor and it provides more options. I can't understand the reasoning for anyone to be adhering themselves to a dead donkey, particularly those that have been around enough to know the current situation.

[B i r n o u]

It seems to me that this discussion has taken a very different direction from its initial meaning, as often happens when a person expresses reluctance to answer the question they are asked. Let me rephrase the question: Dreamweaver, as a software, does not support accessibility (not just for the sites it allows to be developed, but as a tool itself). So what would be the context if an agency had to provide it to its teams? Several questions have diverted and provoked confusion, even though I have tried every time to refocus the debate by returning to point number 2. Despite this, every time the discussion returned to the discontinuity of DW...which is not the issue here.

2 - I have always believed that Section 508 requires software to be accessible to people with disabilities, especially when provided by federal agencies. So, what if Dreamweaver is used by a communications department (well, through a CC account) in a government agency?

By @B i r n o u

[osgood_]

Let me rephrase the question: Dreamweaver, as a software, does not support accessibility (not just for the sites it allows to be developed, but as a tool itself). So what would be the context if an agency had to provide it to its teams?

By @B i r n o u

I'd say the agency must be full of 60+ zombies, simple.

[Nancy OShea]

...every time the discussion returned to the discontinuation of DW...which is not the issue here.

By @B i r n o u

=========

Of course it's the issue.  It's a big pink elephant in the middle of this room.  You can't pretend it's not there.

It seems to me that this discussion has taken a very different direction from its initial meaning, as often happens when a person expresses reluctance to answer the question they are asked. 

What if Dreamweaver is used by a communications department  in a government agency?

=========

I have answered your question the best way possible.  Sucking oxygen from the room over hypothetical scenarios that will never exist doesn't change anything. 

Dreamweaver's user base is fundamentally seniors with DIY legacy sites to maintain.  They only care about Templates & Library Items.  As a serious coding tool, DW fell out of favor with college-aged Millennials years ago and it never recovered. 

Suggesting that GenZs and government agencies could be enticed to embrace Dreamweaver now is just Quixotic wishful thinking.

1. It won't happen (remember that pink elephant). 

2. The product's reputation is too tarnished to be taken seriously by progressive developers.  For amateur DIY users, it does what it needs to do.  That's all that is required now.

[Nancy OShea]

This reads an awful lot like chatGPT pre-spam. Only it's not as well informed.

Dreamweaver does not have to be ADA compliant.  No software does.  Only brick & motar buildings do.  And section 508 guidelines only apply to software built for use by government agencies.

Can we please end this topic now?  I'm sooooooo done with this.

[B i r n o u]

why not let people express themselves... and even if the conversation would become a lounge room chatter... whatever... anyway, if the conversation is exhausting you, why not simply ignore it, and just let it pass, after all the filters exist, ignore it. ... you don't know how many times I don't even open emails, just by seeing a topic, or the name of the person who just posted... lol... not even an ounce of Judeo-Christian guilt-tripping thought...

well just to add a layer... and get back to the main topic of this thread... sometimes the question is not about legislating a consideration, but rather about individual or group involvement, to see how the integration and consideration, in the broadest sense, of everyone's expectations, can be amended in the tools are they for governmental use, or not ... just to improve the daily lives of the greatest number in their uses for tools they pay for.