Am I at fault?

[Stavre0D4C]

Please judge am I right or wrong.

As I've said somewhere before, my Indesign experience is limited to text and rarely some grayscale images.

But now I'm working on a more complex book (for print) with some color images, many grayscale ones, live transparencies, diagrams etc.

To make everything right, I found a designer who would be a 'proxy' between me and the printshop and who would give me few advices, so I can get an optimal result. I didn't expect someone else "to do my homework", but I did expect some advices.

He never warned me about the problems of overprinting, which I learned about only recently. One must check the whole book in overprint view in Indesign, otherwise some elements might dissapear in print! My previous works were simple, so there was no need for that.

Also, he never warned me that the printshops avoid live transparencies and that I must flatten them.

When I asked him which CMYK standard this printshop uses, he said something like: "None" or "It's irrelevant". But I thought, wait a minute, one has to pick a standard (US SWOP, FOGRA...). I was thinking, thinking, asking on forums, but I found no solution.

I thought that I must convert the images to some kind of "pure, essential CMYK", which probably doesn't exist. Later, I took some courage and asked him again, he says convert every image to CMYK in Photoshop.

But then, Photoshop also uses those standards. Which one to pick? The guy says: "the default one". But the default one on your computer might be different to the default one on my computer (e.g. you have US SWOP, I have FOGRA). You can even change the default one to your liking.

Also, I logically assume that if you pick a CMYK profile for your images in Photoshop, your Indesign document must be assigned the same profile and you should export in PDF to the same profile. Am I correct? What would be the consequence if I convert an image to US SWOP and if I place it in FOGRA workspace and then I export it to some Japanese standard?

But after all, I wanted an RGB workflow, why this mess?

And then again I spent whole nights on forums, reading, asking questions, people tried to help me, but in the end of the day (of the night) you should call the printshop!

Finally, after almost two months of agony, I called the printshop directly. The guy whom I spoke to helped me more in 5 minutes than this designer in two months.

The printshop guy explained me some things, he warned me about the dangers and he sent me a joboptions file with all the necesary settings. This was a great relief.

Only later I learned that this is a normal procedure for every decent printshop. It is normal for a printshop to help it's clients by offering them such files and by publishing instructions on their websites (like: flatten the transparencies, check overprinting etc.). I was misled to believe that I'm demanding too much help from the designer (i.e. "I want him to do my homework"), but in fact, these are just basic guidelines, not some kind of an extra favour.

The printshop guy (i.e. the good guy in this story) confirmed that indeed, they do not follow any particular CMYK standard, but I see that their output settings say FOGRA27. This confirms that you cannot just export without any standard, you have to pick one. I forgot to ask him, did they choose FOGRA27 just because you have to pick something OR maybe they experimented with this profile and it gave them good results? I still don't understand this.

The printshop guy also told me that they strip embeded ICC profiles, which is confusing for me. Like, an image was converted to (let's say) US SWOP and a color profile was attached to it. Then the profile is striped in the printing process, so will this affect the appearance of the image on paper?

Unfortunatelly, the designer never explained me this ICC thing. So I was thinking: to preserve the profiles or not? In short, our "cooperation" was a nightmare.

And btw he promised me to make fonts for me, but they were wrong (like: you hit 'A' and you get 'B' or something) and I had to download a font-editor to put everything in it's place.

Finally I told him (in writting and in a civil manner) that this is not right and I listed his mistakes, but, normally, he denies any wrongdoing and he even claims that I "offended them". Why "them"? Because he counts himself as part of the printshop team, but he's more of a visual artist than a print tech, he's more like an "external collaborator".

Am I at fault in this story? Am I missing something?

Thanks.

[Eugene Tyson]

Seems like you did everything right. 

Here's a few pointers.

If you convert your image to CMYK and pick US SWOP Coated - you are assuming this is

1) Printed in the US

2) Using SWOP (which is a web offset printing specficiation) - (web printing is those machines you see newspapares and other such large rolls of paper being fed - it differs than Sheetfed - rolls vs sheets of paper).

3) It's on coated paper. 

If you convert your RGB images to this colour mode  - you are removing the wider gamut (RGB has a wider colour gamut than CMYK) - and this reduces the amount of colours - never to be gained back ever again.

The next thing is - if you embed the Profile - this would embed the ICC Profile in the file - printers often strip out these ICC profiles as they don't match their printing devices. 

What you have done here is 

1) converted an image with a wider gamut to a profile that might not be correct for the output device

2) that CMYK image might go through another conversion at the printers which again shifts the CMYK colours.

What you are better of doing is 

1) Call the printers - they give you joboptions files

2) They might want you to retain the RGB and they do the conversion

2b) They might have a CMYK conversion for you - which is built into the JobOptions

You are better leaving your images as RGB when placing them into InDesign - you can then convert them to CMYK on export to PDF - which is the exact same conversion that Photoshop does. 

Or you can leave the colours and do no conversion - depending on the printers. This allows them to make the CMYK colours from their profiles. 

---------------

In short - whoever you dealt with as a proxy - they didn't really know what they were talking about.

You've done yourself a huge favour - and by the sounds of it - you know more about it then they did. 

------------

Best of luck

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

+1 on everything Eugene said.

Going to commercial (4-color) print is a big step from just dumping pages out on home and office grade color printers. (For one thing, they are built and programmed to be very accommodating and relaxed about color profiles and such.)

It sounds like you got in a little over your head without adequate knowledge of the complexities, and your "proxy" sounds as if they either don't know or are lousy at communicating the issues.

It is BEST to convert your images to CMYK before placing, but as noted, everything really comes down to that final PDF export, which can set all the right parameters and impose a single prin/color standard on everything.

Good luck, and be sure to ask all the questions you have. You'll get good answers here, especially to focused, detailed questions.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

The only "fault" you have is that you did your homework after-the-fact and depended on one person for information. As the old saying goes "trust, but verify".  In truth, the designer should have talked with the printshop and communicated their preferences to you. 

• Normally, one keeps their images in RGB and does not convert to CMYK in advance. That would happen later on.
• Overprinting is not that common for most print jobs unless using spot colors or applying blending modes. I can't blame the designer completely about forgetting to mention it, but I always suggest using Overprint Preview (among other settings) to soft proof the document. That would have shown any overprinting issues.
• The printer should ask for a PDF/X files. (Did they even mention that PDF file format?) If they ask for a PDF/X-4, you know you are dealing with a reasonably sophisticated printer; if they ask for a PDF/X-1a, not so much. The former lets the printer convert to CMYK and flatten transparency to their desired settings; the latter lets you do all the work (for better or worse).
• It does sound like the printer doesn't deal with (or understand) color profiles and calibration that much--probably adjusts color "on the fly". 

In the end, I would avoid the designer for production advice, and I would avoid the printer for color-critical work.

[Test Screen Name]

"he never warned me that the printshops avoid live transparencies and that I must flatten them."

That's because it would be bad advice. 

Some out-of-date print shops (and there are many who just run 20 year old kit and blame their customers for problems) will insist on removing live transparency, but that doesn't mean you should do it unless asked. It is not a good thing to do in general.

"When I asked him which CMYK standard this printshop uses, he said something like: "None" or "It's irrelevant". "

I agree with your judgement of his abilities. It is woefully common for people to muddle by without any clue of colour management. 20 years ago, print shops would commonly take your CMYK work, run a proof, and then adjust settings on the press or platemaker until it looked right. No doubt some still do, because some print shops don't seem to have a clue about colour management.

[Stavre0D4C]

@Eugene Tyson, @James Gifford—NitroPress, @Dave Creamer of IDEAS, @Test Screen Name

Thank you all for your opinions.

NitroPress:
Good luck, and be sure to ask all the questions you have. You'll get good answers here, especially to focused, detailed questions.

RE: Thank you very much. Actually I have a couple of questions here:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/indesign-discussions/images-with-icc-convert-to-devicecmyk/m-p/124747...

https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/cmyk-blend-space-changes-to-rgb-in-acrobat/m-p/12...

If someone knows the solution, thanks in advance.

Creamer Training:
The printer should ask for a PDF/X files. (Did they even mention that PDF file format?)

Test Screen Name:
"he never warned me that the printshops avoid live transparencies and that I must flatten them." That's because it would be bad advice.

When I finally contacted the printshop directly, they sent me a joboptions file for PDF/X-3:2002, Acrobat 4 (PDF 1.3). Maybe that's old school, but it means no live transparencies and there must be a reason why some printers still avoid them. This designer/middleman never told me about these things and he never gave me those settings.

Creamer Training:
The only "fault" you have is that you did your homework after-the-fact and depended on one person for information. As the old saying goes "trust, but verify". In truth, the designer should have talked with the printshop and communicated their preferences to you.

RE: It's true that I have a lot to learn, but that's exactly why I decided to hire someone to help me. My homework was to make the book, which I did, everything else was his homework and he was terrible at it. Finally, I ended the "cooperation" with him and I choosed another printshop. His printshop lost a client, so with a 'proxy' (middleman) such as him who needs an enemy? He created problems and even financial losses for everyone. I wasted valuable time with him and the consuequences can be very bad, cause the deadline for this project is near.