Rendering pdf from placed images larger than 32,000px

[chrisb4712334]

I am using InDesign to create a massive printed graphic (26 x 36 ft).  I have placed a .psb file that is about 54,000px across - and it is unstable in its placement.  Despite looking correct on screen, when I export a print pdf from InDD - it shifts where its sitting - and I just can't get it to stay where it appears to be.

So I tried placing the large raster image @ 32,000px in an .Ai file (which can handle big images), placing this .Ai file in InDD.  At this resolution I can export a print pdf.  When I try to do the same thing, but with an image of 40,000 px in the .Ai file - it either crashes, or creates an incomplete pdf with the raster image only partially rendered. It seems like there's a limit on the size of image InDD can handle (this classic 32,000px wall that exists for raster images). 

Does anyone know if there's a way for InDD to handle images beyond 32,000px? Thank you

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

Can't you split it into parts and place side-by-side? 

Or even a grid with much smaller pieces? 

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

It's going to have to be printed in strips anyway; I think Grand Format maxes out at ten or twelve feet wide.

[Joel Cherney]

Does anyone know if there's a way for InDD to handle images beyond 32,000px? 

It has been a very long time since I worked at anything like that scale, but the printers and signmakers I was working with echoed the advice that was typically handed out here in a previous version of this forum. The typical advice here was "use a ten-to-one ratio" while the signmakers had me go into a little bit more mathematical detail, figuring out the relationship between a single pixel and the maximum possible resolution of the print. 

I'm thinking about your image that is 54000 pixels across and 36 feet across... are you really printing a 36'x26' image at around 130ppi? Sorry, maybe someone who has done large-format work in the last decade should be posting this. James? I had to search "grand format printer" in order to understand what you're talking about, and now I'm looking at a brag sheet for a EFI VUTEk that will print 126 inches wide at 1000 DPI.  I'm impressed! But it does look like the industry-wide max width print path is well under 26 feet. 

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Actually, there is one monster that print 12 meters wide by something like 105 meters. It's used for things like Broadway backdrops and stadium drapes.

As much as I'd like to contribute to puzzling this through, the cost of printing something at that scale is so enormous that the best source for technical help is the putative print service itself. If they routinely print at this size, they routinely provide expert technical specs, advice and file management assistance as well. This is not OTC-at-Kinko's work.

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

Yeah, 10:1 should be perfectly sufficient - especially if it's a banner high on the building... 

[chrisb4712334]

Thanks for this advice folks.  I may reach out to the printer in this case.

It's actually a Floor Map.  Printed on billboard vinyl - but viewed either from standing height - or up close if you bend down.  So we've run with about a 72dpi resolution (32,000px) for a while - and I wanted to crisp up the image this time.  I guess I'd hoped there was some setting that could be altered to allow InDesign to process this resolution.  I'll keep digging.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Do you actually have a print vendor that can print 26-foot width? If not, if this will be printed in 10-12 foot strips, then the technical question, while interesting/frustrating, is moot.

[J E L]

@chrisb4712334, I'm pinging @Bobby Henderson, an Adobe Expert who is a lead designer at a US sign company. He may have some further insights for you, too.

[chrisb4712334]

Thanks - I hope to hear from a print expert.

It's really that InDD just won't render a print pdf from placed big-pixel images.  

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Thanks - I hope to hear from a print expert.

The only print expert who can contribute anything but a general opinion is the one at your intended print service. Large and Grand Format printing is far less standardized than most print service, and only someone with his (or her) hand on that specific press's RIP can give you a meaningful answer.

It's really that InDD just won't render a print pdf from placed big-pixel images.  

Your extreme focus on this technical detail, which can be readily worked around, seems... familiar.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Thanks - I hope to hear from a print expert.

The only print expert who can contribute anything but a general opinion is the one at your intended print service. Large and Grand Format printing is far less standardized than most print service, and only someone with his (or her) hand on that specific press's RIP can give you a meaningful answer.

It's really that InDD just won't render a print pdf from placed big-pixel images.  

Your extreme focus on this technical detail, which can be readily worked around, seems... familiar.

[Bobby Henderson]

A 54,000 pixel wide image is pretty "heavy" for a large format RIP to handle. For photo imagery on things like vehicle wraps, banners, etc. 72ppi at full size should be good enough. A 36'/432" wide graphic at 54,000 pixels wide works out to 125ppi.

What kinds of elements are going into this design? Is it just photos? Or is it a combination of photo imagery, graphical elements and text? If the latter is involved you should be creating the layout either in Illustrator or InDesign using vector-based objects whenever possible. This will allow any photo-based elements to be set at 72ppi (or lower) resolution yet the vector-based elements will be output at the printer's maximum resolution. Using a mix of raster and vector objects will make the print job look better and be output more efficiently. Some folks try to do everything just in Photoshop and that's just not a good practice.

Regarding working at scale: yes, it is common for grand format service bureaus (billboard printing companies) to request artwork sized at 10% of actual size. That's partly to get around the standard 227" X 227" max canvas size in Illustrator and InDesign. The artwork can be scaled to full size in the RIP. Photo imagery has to be produced at a similar scale. A billboard ad created at 1" = 1' scale with photo imagery set at 300ppi will work out to 25ppi at full size. That might seem coarse, but it's not bad if you're viewing the ad from a moving vehicle on an Interstate highway.

[Joel Cherney]

My very cursory & brief review of online quote generators for billboard printers is exactly in line with exactly what @Bobby Henderson says here. 72dpi print output is "high resolution" for a bunch of them, and they all suggest initial Photoshop settings of 720dpi for the exact reasons he points out above.  I also found some houses offering eye-wateringly high resolutions - e.g. a 3.2-meter-wide print path at 2880dpi, but that was "trade show graphics," not billboards. Those prices were much higher, of course. 

100% of the billboard printers I looked at advised that anything wider than Some Number of Feet (it varied, from 10' to 16') would be printed in strips and heat-sealed together. 

100% of the billboard printers I looked at had file submission guidelines for files (usually PDF and TIFF) produced by Photoshop and Illustrator.

0% of them had similar guidelines for InDesign. Just for laughs, I have to include that one out of five billboard printers whose offerings I reviewed gave formatting instructions for submitting PDFs made from Canva.

Lastly, 100% of the pricing FAQs and PDFs that I reviewed last night had some bit that said "Unsure about resolution or file format? Please contact us before finalizing your artwork!" 

It's really that InDD just won't render a print pdf from placed big-pixel images. 

The only potentially meaningful response that I can figure out for this is that the only useful place to post about bugs or feature requests is the InDesign Uservoice. 

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

Mentioned 2880dpi is pretty much standard resolution - of the print head. 

And technically, it wouldn't be a problem to print with this resolution - but the file - or rather files - would be gigantic.

So the only reason for supplying files - with birmaps "at scale" - is the size of the source file and the distance of the print from the viewer. 

[Bobby Henderson]

Large format RIP applications have their own internal tricks they do for scaling raster-based imagery. But those re-sampling tricks work only so well. For elements like logos, type and other line work it's just best to create those elements as vector-based artwork (whenever possible). Vector-based elements will print at the maximum resolution the printer can output.

Regarding raster-based imagery resolutions in large format printing, it's all a push-pull balance. The intended viewing distance should define the resolution level of raster-based elements. Billboards are usually viewed from significant distances. Even 72ppi at full size would be overkill for something like a 48' X 14' billboard installed outside the right of way of a super highway. I like 72ppi for vehicle wraps; I might go with 96ppi if it's a smaller vehicle. A movie poster one sheet can have 150ppi photo imagery (but the smaller lettering and logos typically at the bottom needs to be vector).

Billboard printing companies are more accustomed to receiving Illustrator AI files or Illustrator-generated PDFs. InDesign can generate very good PDFs. Most corporate branding work is created using Adobe applications. Leading large format RIP applications have Adobe certified PDF print engines. Printing results are going to be more predictable when handling PDFs generated by Adobe applications.

PDFs made from Canva? Vomit. I'm really disliking this new trend of D-I-Y graphic design since it frequently involves things like Canva. It's just another extra level of frustration added to the other long existing, frequent issues with customer provided artwork. Most people don't understand the difference between pixel-based graphics and vector-based graphics. And they don't appear to be interested in learning the difference either (until they start paying our service charges to fix/re-build their artwork). Then we have the more basic problem of so many people not understanding basic geometry. Currently I'm hung up on a replacement face project for a 432" X 126" static billboard face; the client gave us the ad artwork as a low-res JPEG image that doesn't even fit that aspect ratio. He basically laid out the thing in Photoshop on a letter sized page.

Here's another problem when customers try to design their own billboard ad files. They very rarely ever incorporate any bleed into the artwork, much less the right amount of bleed. Not all billboard structures are the same. The graphics are typically printed onto flexible face material similar to banner material. The extra bleed area is usually for pole and pocket systems for the billboard face installation. The average is a 6 inch bleed around the perimeter of the active face area. For example, a 30' X 10' billboard face would need an art file 31' X 11'. Additionally, any important elements, such as lettering, needs to not be hugging the edge of the face. We don't live in a perfect world. So there has to be some "safe title area" style wiggle room. Plus a good billboard face design should have enough white space so the design doesn't look cramped.

[J E L]

@Bobby Henderson, you wrote, “And they don't appear to be interested in learning the difference either (until they start paying our service charges to fix/re-build their artwork).” That reminded me of a webinar title I saw recently that made me laugh: Change Orders as a Profit Center.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Change Orders as a Profit Center.

OMG (and I'd add another letter if this wasn't a polite group), that's the funniest thing I've read in days.

Reminds me of the early days when standard practice was to make a pretty, pretty picture on [a certain now-obsolete app] using [a platform that promised to make anyone an instant expert]... and then send the live file off to someone at the print service who actually knew how to make it a workable thing.

(Proud to say that in that era, the shop I worked for never sent out anything but RIP-ready PS files. We had a side business as an intermediary in that "fixup" process.)

[J E L]

Ha, @James Gifford—NitroPress, right? Once I thought about it, I couldn't get it out of my mind, that's for sure. Reminds me of ages ago when I hired a low-bid contractor. They ended up charging more than the highest bid because the sidewalk edging wasn't *exactly* specified in the original estimate. But I digress…

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Not to drag this thread too far from its topic, but yeah. My story is from the bright, shiny "desktop publishing" days and we gained a competitor with every [small white box] sold. My favorite was the guy who had spent $10k on [the larger white box with a girl's name] and a laser printer and software... and couldn't lay out a memo. We "fixed up" his projects for a while before he quit the game like most who had fallen for the schuck that "anyone can do it."

And, gosh, with Canva et al. ... it's like old times again. 😛

[rob day]

Hi @chrisb4712334 , What is the size of the page you are placing the .psb on? InDesign has a 216" limit, but PDF has a smaller 200" limit, so if you try to export an ID file with a larger dimension than 200" the PDF would get clipped on the export.

Do you have the shifting problem if you work at a 25% scale—set the document page size to 108" x78", Export at the same size, and have the printer print at 400%?

Here are the limits:

[chrisb4712334]

Thanks very much for all of your thoughts everyone.  Rob - you're right on about the sizing - and this is the approach we've taken - designing to about 78 x 108 in Ai and InDD.  And though all comments are correct that for a billboard - that 72dpi is plenty.  This is a very unique product - a floor map - where folks can view it from afar, but also right up close.  There is a massive amount of vector content (two .ai files worth) on top of the raster background.  And they are big vector files - very resolute rivers and lakes and roads and labels etc.  So the whole thing is a grind.

All I know from testing is that it can render a print pdf when the total raster-background size is 30-32K pixels (baked into an .ai file), as soon as I make a single file Ai file with a 40K pixel image - the render fails.  If I cut the native 54K pixel image in two and place two .ai files side by side - the render also fails.  And I had begun this by simply placing a psb file that was 54K across - but this was where it mysteriously shifted by 1/4 or 1/2 inch in the rendering - despite being placed precisley where it should have been. 

Sorry to present such a muddle of a problem. 

[Bobby Henderson]

How is the floor map being installed? I would assume it is being printed on vinyl specially made for floor graphics installations. The roll vinyl is available at widths only so wide. Obviously the whole thing will have to be installed in strips or panels. It can't be printed or installed in just one piece.

With material width limits in mind, is it possible to divide the map up into smaller segments?

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Once again, Chris, you hammer away demanding a precise answer to an impossible or impossibly difficult technical problem, ignore all experienced advice you're given, and refuse to answer key questions that might lead to a real solution. And keep coming back with one "Yes, but..." after another in pursuit of some exact answer that doesn't exist.

Take this problem to the prepress department of the print service you intend to use for this monstrously overscaled project, and quit insisting that the well-intentioned folks here find you some solution that works for what is likely a theoretical project anyway.

And, if I can really overstep my authority here... quit doing this here.

[chrisb4712334]

Apologies.  Clearly this community is not the place for me to seek help.  

I will not bother you ever again