Undesired yet repeating master page elements

[Grundoon Groundhog]

How does one prevent master page items from reappearing if pages are added or deleted? I thought I'd solved the problem by copying and pasting them as separate elements rather than inserting the master, but they reappear. It's maddening.

[Barb Binder · Accepted solution]

Hi @Grundoon Groundhog:

It's been a while. Hope you are doing well.

The A-Parent is assigned as a default to all body pages. You can select one or more body pages in the Pages panel, hold Alt/Option key and click on the word [None] at the top of the parent page section. 

~Barb

[Grundoon Groundhog]

Hello Barb. Thanks fo your message. I think I didn't explain the problem well. If I add or delete pages, master page items "automatically" appear on succeeding pages, often on top of already extant master items I've pasted in by hand as it were. Oh, perhaps you mean I should select the option key +_none when adding pages? I want to add a page that has a foliio or columns already set, but special pages with say the title of an article are the ones that get the elements repeated. I hope this is clearer than mud.

Best,

Andrew O

[Barb Binder]

Hi @Grundoon Groundhog:

So we typically don't want to micromanage the parent page elements. (Master pages have been renamed parent pages.) The general idea here is that you put the repeating elements on the parent pages, and assign the parent pages to the body pages. You can define additional parent pages when you have variations that you want to assign to your body pages. You can also link the new parent pages to the original A-Parent, so that a change to the A-Parent will flow down to the linked parent pages, and then to the linked body pages.

I can't think of a good reason to physically copy parent page elements to the body pages. Instead, I would create a parent page spread for each situation. For example, A-Parent may have the folio and columns defined, and B-Parent (based on A-Parent) may have those two elements, plus the article title in the running head. Then you can assign the correct master page as you add new body pages.

I'm not sure how you are adding body pages, but in the Pages panel, you can simply drag a master page to the body page area to add the new page and assign the master at the same time.

If this is also clear as mud, then it's probably time for some screenshots. Or you can share your file with me by putting it on dropbox and messaging me a link.

~Barb

[Grundoon Groundhog]

Yes, I've done exactly what you describe to create and use parent pages for many years. And for many years I've had the problem of master page items automatically duplicating if a page is added or subtracted before they appear. So I do have to micromanage to delete the unwanted elements. I'm attaching sample PDFs which I hope will make the problem clear. Thanks for your help and patience.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

It looks like the parent page items have been overridden (and moved slightly). If the parent page gets reapplied, you will get the affect you are seeing.

[Grundoon Groundhog]

But WHY is the parent page reapplied? That is the problem. How do I prevent this from happening when pages are added? Thanks for stating it clearly, which helps.

[Willi Adelberger]

I strongly recommend not ro override master/parent page elements on the final page.

Better is to create new masters/parents besed on the master/parent, add, remove or change elements there and apply that master/parent. 

To avoid confusion in the future, especially in the exchange of pages between documents, change the generic names of the master/parents to distinct describing, unique names. 

[Grundoon Groundhog]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your suggestion. 

Each master page does have its own unique name.

[Willi Adelberger]

Avid names lika A, B, C, etc. use 3 or 4 digit name, different in each document if they are not identical.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Create different parent/master pages, starting with the simplest (possibly blank) and working up to the more complex using based on parent pages by adding more objects. (I generally don't use None since it removes the ability to make changes to the parent page later on.)

You can also use layers to control what shows up on parent pages, but that's probably not necessary. 

[Barb Binder]

Ok, your question makes sense now. I would pivot and take a different approach. Parent pages are so great because they control the repeating elements. Sure, we can override occasionally, but it should be just that—occasionally. And not in a long document where editing forces reflow. 

I see two avenues that will cause initial work, but will solve the issue. 

Working in a single file

Make the opening page artwork a Library item. (Group it, add text wrap and then add it to the library). Then you can place a copy where you need it, anchored it to a paragraph style that is centered and at the top of the page, and as you add remove/content it just reflows? It will remain editable.

Use an InDesign book

If you break the sections/chapters into their own files, and collect them back into a book, the reflow that impacts previous chapters will not impact future chapters. You just update the book numbering and you are good to go. 

~Barb

[Grundoon Groundhog]

Thanks, Barb. I will try the library; I've been copying and pasting the elements from the master pages (it worked in the previous edition of the magazine) but a library might be more efficient.

I once tried making a book but it was too confusing.

[Grundoon Groundhog]

I still wonder why this happens, and if it happens to anyone else. I am the kiss of death with machinery of all kinds

[Barb Binder]

This is normal. When you override master page items, and then reapply the master page, you get duplicates. And when you add pages, lefts become rights, and rights become lefts and it gets very confusing. I just avoid that workflow. I do mostly long doc layout—in both InDesign and FrameMaker—so I'm very cognizant about how to design a document that can just reflow after edits. @Dave Creamer of IDEAS (aka Dave) is as well. We have very similar backgrounds—this is our area of expertise.

~Barb

[Grundoon Groundhog]

Barb, I've been using a library with some success. Is there a way to edit the items in a library without remaking them from scratch? I see the "add items on page 00" as an option, but it doesn't seem tow work. And can items in a CC library be sorted, as they can in a "regular" ID library? Thanks!

[Barb Binder]

Hi @Grundoon Groundhog:

Organizing. You can make multiple CC Libraries, which is analogous to working with multiple InDesign .indl libraries. You can also choose "Auto-generate groups" from the CC Library panel menu to create a groups for Colors, Typography and Graphics, etc. You can also add your own groups by right clicking an item > New Group from Element.

Editing items. Right click the item in the CC Library > Edit. This opens the item as a separate file. Edit the file, save and close the document. Note: InDesign items are not yet linked to the placed items on the page. You will need to replace the occurrences on the page after an edit.

~Barb

[Grundoon Groundhog]

Thanks, Barb. I tried editing but it did something strange, making new copies of the items that were graphics rather than text, or something. I quickly gave up and can't describe it better. I ended up recreating my elements for the library, which wasn't as hard as I'd expected.