P: R5 colour noise slider

[ntompson]

I think the "Color" noise slider in Lightroom Classic has a bug specific to the Canon R5, in which the value gets multiplied by about 4 or 5. A setting of 5 for the Canon R5 is about the same as 25 for any other camera. At a setting of 25, low ISO images with pushed exposure and high ISO images show severe smearing of colours in the shadows. A similar thing happens for other cameras when the colour noise slider is set to 100.

I provide more detail (including sample photos) in this DPR thread:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4593805

The Canon R5 has been around a long time. It is an expensive camera and will soon become one of the leading full frame cameras. It astounds me that Adobe could allow a bug like this to make it into production software and then be left for so long. I am increasingly saddened by the poor support Adobe put into Lightroom Classic. I pay my monthly subscription fee, but my resolve is constantly tested.

[COBill]

I can't recreate the problem on Windows. But don't you think that there would be a flood of complaints if this was a Lightroom issue? 

[ntompson]

I'm using Mac, but I doubt that's relevant. Have you tried using images that are either high in ISO or low in ISO pushed in exposure? Try downloading the RAW images from DPReview as I have - see the link I provided.

[COBill]

I downloaded the ISO 8000 image. It could be your plugins.

While unlikely to be your Mac, it could be the video card. Apple does a better job of testing video card drivers than Microsoft but still I'd test without the video card active in preferences. 

The ISO 8000 image did have lots of luminance noise but no color noise.

Side issue, I now use ON1 NoNoise AI instead of the Lightroom noise reduction and sharpening sliders. By batch processing all my raw images into DNGs first before importing into Lightroom, I'm getting results that I prefer as well as saving time editing in Lightroom. Even low ISO shadow noise is nicely cleaned up. 

[ntompson]

Bill, I don't think we're on the same page.

No it's not the video card, and no it's not plugins. It's a bug. We're not looking for colour noise, we're looking for the colour getting smeared in specific places, caused by an incorrect handling of the colour noise slider.

Did you read what I wrote over at DPR? Have you seen the multiple voices agreeing with my observations?

[fredf17205859]

@bill_3305731
I am slightly confused. I always work with raw (NEF) or (CR2) images. Are you using Lightroom when batch processing all your raw images into DNGs "first before importing into Lightroom", or some other application, since using Lightroom will convert the raw images AND import them in the same process?

Also, I ran a test on a few raw (NEF) images and fail to see why these would save me any time when editing. What am I missing please? 

Thank you.
 

[COBill]

fredf_6hou7t9fecc1c

Batch processing thru ON1 NoNoise AI performs all the noise reduction and sharpening in a single pass. Then those steps are no longer necessary in Lightroom. 

[COBill]

@nick_tompson

I've got to reread your Dpreview posting and try again but too busy with the garden right now. All I can state for sure is that the ISO 8,000 image had no color noise that I can see on calibrated 4K monitors at 100% and 200%. 

[fredf17205859]

OK, got ya.
But I'd think each individual image would still need to be tweeked individually, no?

[COBill]

@fredf_6hou7t9fecc1c

For me, I don't find a need for individual adjustments. By setting the noise reduction to 100 instead of 98 and recover details to 10-20, I get results that are pleasing.

At first I thought that it might overdo the adjustments to low ISO shots but it just nicely cleaned up the shadows and left everything else alone. By keeping the recover detail no higher than 20, sharpening artifacts are minimal though I'm starting to use 10-15. More experimentation needed. 

I also have the Topaz AI tools. It takes 1-2 minutes per image to hand adjust the noise reduction and another 2-5 minutes to adjust sharpness because the sharpness tool inside the noise reduction tool is poor. This has to be done one at a time for each individual image. When done, the results are no better to my eyes than using ON1. 

This is on a 6-core Xeon with 64GB of RAM and only a Quadro P2200 video card. 

[ntompson]

People, can we get back on topic please?

There is no question that there is a bug in Lightroom affecting the R5. You don't have to believe me: DPR found the same thing when they tested the R5 - see this example from their exposure latitude test (using Lightroom as the RAW processor):

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr144_0=canon_eosr5&attr144_1=sony_a7...

I'd love to hear from Team Adobe: has this bug been captured and are you working on it? This seems to be the only way I can report a bug to you.

[fredf17205859]

Thanks Bill. That's very helpful information since I have been contemplating which AI product to purchase.

[COBill]

@fredf_6hou7t9fecc1c

You are most welcome. Since they are free to download and try out, you might have a different opinion. 

[COBill]

@nick_tompson 

IMHO this is an indication that the Canon sensor is not ISO invariant. The colors are correct with the -0EV image and muddy with the -5EV image. I guess I don't understand but this does not appear to be a Lightroom issue to me. 

[ntompson]

@bill_3305731 you've hit the nail on the head but completely back to front. If you look at the DPR images as is, you would conclude that there is something wrong with the camera - as you did. But in fact, the problem is with Lightroom. You can see the horrible colour smearing in the right hand image - looks like a terrible camera. But if you quickly jump into the develop module for the right hand image and wind the colour noise slider down to 5, you'll see that the colour smearing suddenly disappears.

If you then try the same thing with another camera (eg the Nikon Z7II), you'll find that the same colour smearing effect can be replicated by turning the colour noise slider up to 100.

In other words, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the camera. Lightroom, on the other hand is mangling the R5 image in a way that it doesn't for any other similar camera.

I really hope this is clear and we can focus on getting the point across to Adobe so that they can actually fix it.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Greetings,

Updates to Lightroom Classic and the Lightroom Ecosystem products for Desktop, Mobile and Web were released today. After installing the updates (x.4) please confirm if you still see this issue after updating.

[ntompson]

@Rikk will do Rikk. Are there any bug fix release notes for Lightroom Classic?

[ntompson]

@Rikk Hi - I have updated Lightroom to the latest release (v10.4) and it has made absolutely no difference to this issue. Can you please acknowledge the issue and that it has been added to a bug tracker somewhere?

Thanks,

Nick 

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Do you see the problem in Camera Raw as well as Lightroom or just in Lightroom?

[Todd Shaner]

Rikk, I can confirm the behavior nick_tompson is seeing using the DPReview test files with LrC 10.4. Camera Raw 13.4 exhibits the same issue.

[ntompson]

Thanks Todd.

Hi @Rikk I also just tried the same thing in ACR and found exactly the same behaviour. A setting of 5 with the Canon R5 looks similar to a setting of 25 with the Nikon Z7II.

For completeness, I'm using Lightroom Classic. I haven't tried Lightroom cloud.

[gillianl45163736]

@Rikk Hey new on this thread, and hopefully this is the same issues I’m talking about, but I’m having real issues with the colour profiles. The Canon R5 raws are beautiful and I can seem them perfectly in photo mechanic as well as capture( which I’m trying to learn and this issue is killing me), but as soon as I import the raws into Lightroom they look terrible. Where is the camera profile for this and why’s it such an issue that the 2 big players in the photographic industry aren’t compatible? 
Any help or any ideas about when/ if these will be realised would be much appreciated. 

Chris - The Curries 

[ntompson]

Hi @Rikk Flohr: Photography. I've recently upgraded to Lightroom Classic 11.1 and I'm reasonably certain the R5 colour noise handling bug has been corrected. All of a sudden, I notice that images that previously needed to have the colour noise reduction slider set to 5 now show colour noise, and I need to increase the slider to 25 to get an acceptable result.

Are you able to confirm that the bug has been fixed? Nothing in the release notes mentions this.

While I'm very pleased that the bug appears to have been fixed, it also creates rework, because I now need to go back and return the colour noise slider for all of my R5 images from 5 to 25. Really, this is a "breaking change" and should have been properly documented. It took me a while to realise something wasn't right when images at middling ISOs (1000+) started to show colour noise when I wasn't expecting it.

Thanks,

Nick