P: Ability to sync Lightroom Classic keywords with the Lightroom Ecosystem

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Keywords do not sync correctly: When added on the mobile app (iOS), they do not appear in LR classic and not in LR Web (I deleted the new LR CC immediately, this version does not make sense to me).
Same problem into the other direction: Keywords from LR classic do not appear on the mobile app. 
Attention: At this stage the whole keywording within the iOS app should not be used!

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

If the issue is not technical anymore, what is it ?  - Commercial ? Force people to go full cloud - Resources ? Coast to much to implement.- Strategic ? Store and dilute version improvements and they announcement effects for later. - .... ? 

[JohanElzenga]

Of course it is still the same technical problem. Why they decided not to solve it is anyones guess. Strategic, too much work, commercial, who knows. 

[Antoine HLMN]

Sylvain, in my humble opinion:

Commercial ? Force people to go full cloud
—> obviously (And I’m tempted to use caps lock)

Resources ? Cost to much to implement
—> I don’t believe it. The could switch to LR CC

Strategic ?
—> Yes, minimal sync capabilities for Classic to push towards LR CC “full cloud”. My guess would be to make the switch to another app as difficult as possible.

Store and dilute version improvements and they announcement effects for later.
—> Not in this case. It might be the case for LR CC and mobile. They must have a roadmap for bigger functions but some updates come with almost no new features.

[patrickhudgell]

This is appalling. I have a 50k image database that has been keyworded painstakingly over ten years and I use the keywords to find images. When I try to use Lightroom CC mobile I cannot see the keywords. That makes the product virtually useless in my view. It is like selling a car that has no lights. Yes, you can drive it but only in the daytime!!

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Hi Patrick, please try to use the filter function in LR mobile, here you should see your keywords even at night and without internet access 🙂

[Jao vdL]

Patrick can't use the filter function since he entered those keywords in Classic and Lightroom CC will not know about them since keywords don't sync from Classic to CC except for very limited circumstances (xmp files were written and it is the first sync)

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

For Patrick to use his Lightroom Classic CC keywords in the Lightroom CC ecosystem, he would have to perform a one-time catalog migration from Classic to CC - Desktop App.  In the Migration process, the keyword hierarchy (if any) in Classic would be flattened in Lightroom CC.  Keyword Synonyms would also be lost in the process. 

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Hmmh, I have my keywords in LR Classic and synced to LR CC. Yes, Adobe should make a 100% sync function, but I believe they will drop LR classic first

[patrickhudgell]

Thanks for your suggestions but I spent the afternoon talking to Adobe and they have confirmed that they cannot show keywords that were generated in LR Classic in the CC mobile version. I get the impression that there is some fundamental architectural reason for this. The only way I have so far found to do what I want is to export images as jpgs into the same folder as the original raw files and simultaneously add back in to the LR Classic catalogue. The keywords are then embedded in the jpg so all versions of LR then see the keywords. I have spent the last ten years using the Classic version of LR so am reluctant to change and have not yet looked at the desktop version of CC. That may be the answer. Further investigation required.......

[ethani48380925]

Here's a partial solution, though incomplete: 

If you're main desire is to create a gallery with up-to-date keywords, consider getting a SmugMug account.   I have their basic plan at $47.88/year, and there are plug-ins that allow you to sync a gallery with LR Classic, using the publish service.  You can edit keywords, titles, or captions on either end and have them sync to the other.  Visitors can sync on a keyword (i.e. person's name) and see all photos to which it applies.

The caveats:

• Keywords are flat in SmugMug.  However, if you add one on the site that currently exists in your hierarchy, then when it syncs back, it will match it in the hierarchy.  I'm assuming this will break down in the event that you have more than one keyword with the same name.
• You currently need to use two plug-ins to sync in both directions.  The official plug-in does a great job of updating the gallery if anything changes in LR.  However, I didn't find it to work at all when syncing changes from SmugMug back to LR.  In order to pull that off, you need to use a 2nd plug-in called Smug Syncback for Lightroom.  (This might be something you don't need, however.)
• As a result, syncing is not automatic.  To sync from LR -> SmugMug, you either use the Publish command (for photo details or titles, keywords, and captions) or the Smug Syncback plug-in (just titles, keywords, and captions).   To sync back (titles, keywords, and captions), you need to use a command from the Smug Syncback plug-in.
• Only titles, keywords, and captions can be synced back from SmugMug.  There is no ability to change the star rating of a photo within SmugMug, although the rating is viewable (but not prominent in any way).  You can make other edits to the photo on SmugMug, such as cropping, rotating, and color effects, but those don't sync back to LR. 
• There's no facial recognition component or even the ability to demarcate a section of the photo to indicate who a keyword applies to, on SmugMug.  (I'm thinking, I might put up some old photos and ask relatives to identify people in the photo.  The most they can do is write in the keyword.  I would need to match it up with someone in the photo myself, using LR.)

[Califdan2]

When one first adds an image in Classic to a Synced collection, the keywords on that image find their way to the Cloud version.  However, any subsequent changes to keywords in Classic to dot sync to the cloud and vice-versa.  

One way to "force" your classic Keywords to the cloud is to remove the image from all synced collections in Classic (i like to wait till I verify they are gone from the Cloud version) then add them back to their respective synced collections.  This of course requires them to be re-uploaded which can be time consuming if you have a lot of them.

The other thing I should point out (which I consider a bug) is that ALL keywords sync to the cloud, regardless of the check boxes on those keywords.  So, if you have keywords marked to be excluded on exports, they still are included in the cloud version of the image.  For example "My idiot cousin Fred".  Even though Adobe still says that syncing keywords is not a feature of the products and they have no intention of making it a feature the fact that keywords from Classic do go to the cloud they should at least adhere to the same rules as exporting.

Dan

PS if you think keyword syncing is important please vote for this thread  - DH

[john beardsworth]

"Forcing" is more complicated or accidental than you think - you need to include smart previews in your understanding. When Sync uploads a photo which has no smart preview, it creates one from the original and this new file happens to include any xmp metadata which has already been saved to the original. Any embedded keywords - not necessarily the current keywords in LR - are then parsed by the server.  It's similar if the photo already has a smart preview - again, any embedded keywords just go along for the ride.

[Califdan2]

I have 85,014 total images in Classic of which 2,011 are synced to the cloud, yet when I look at the counts in the "Smart Preview Status" metadata filter it shows that I only have 32,010 images of which 2 have smart previews and 32,008 do not have smart previews (53,004 images unaccounted for )  There are no other filters set and my source is "All Photographs".   Based on this I presume it is safe to say that Smart Previews generated by the sync process (as opposed to those you choose to generate on your own) are what I would call "hidden Smart Previews".



Okay, so here's the experiment....

1) starting with an image that is synced in one collection and has a non hidden Smart Preview

Part 1

2) check keywords on image in Cloud
3) add new KW in Classic
4) No sync takes place.  New KW does not show up in Cloud

Part 2

5)  Remove Smart Preview of image in Classic
6)  Add new KW in Classic
7)  No Sync takes place.  New KW does not show up in Cloud

Part 3

8)  Remove image from Sync'ed collection in Classic
9)  Wait for "Sync 1 Image" to complete
10) Verify that image is gone from Cloud
11) Add new Keyword in Classic
12) Add image back to sync'ed collection in Classic
13) Wait for Sync 1 image to complete
14) Check Keywords in Cloud.  All keywords from classic are present, including new ones from this experiment.

Part 4

15)  Remove image from sync'ed collection in Classic
16) Verify image gone from cloud
17)  Create Smart Preview of image in classic
18)  Add new keyword in Classic
19)  Add image to sync'ed collection in Classic
20)  Wait for sync 1 photo to complete
21)  Check Keywords in cloud.  Newest KW not present


Hypothesis based on this experiment and comments in this thread  

If your image does not have a Smart Preview in classic (other than a hidden one created by the sync process), and you remove the image from all sync'ed collections (wait for sync to remove it from cloud), and then add it back to the sync'ed collection, all your classic keywords present when re-added to the first sync;ed collection will migrate to the cloud but will not update thereafter (in either direction).

If your image does have a non hidden Smart Collection (i.e. is one shown  as "has smart collection" in "Smart Preview Status" column of Metadata filter) removing the image from the sync'ed collection and then re-adding it does not refresh the keywords in the cloud.

I also presume that if the image is in more than one Sync'ed collection, that you'd have to discard the Smart Preview and remove it from ALL sync'ed collections then add it back to one or more sync'ed collections in order to get the Classic KW's up to the cloud.

Let me know if I missed something here or if there are other factors that influence this.

[Jao vdL]

That is what this thread is all about. There are reasons but they are not completely insurmountable technically.
If you have used Classic for that long you will be deeply disappointed by Lightroom CC on the desktop. It misses most of the essential features of Classic. You can't print, you can't easily publish images to social media, you can't export to anything but sRGB jpeg, you can't do smart collections, keywords are flat, and on and on. The only things CC can do that Classic can't are the uploading of full raw images to the cloud (which Classic can't do for no real reason) and it has an artificial intelligence built in (only when you are internet connected) that allows you to search for visual elements that the AI can detect. That's it. I think the best use case for Lightroom CC is as a mobile companion to Classic. I will sometimes travel with just an iPad and import images to it and do small edits. The images will show up fully edited when I get back on my Classic machine. Same with raw images shot on my phone using the CC app. They just show up in Classic neatly filed in my filing hierarchy (an option you have to enable). Lightroom CC on the computer is really just a port of the mobile Lightroom to the desktop. It is similarly limited. If you are an iPhone shooter or have limited number of images and have limited needs (you never print for example) then it is really neat that everything syncs across platforms seamlessly. As soon as you do anything more complex with your images, you need Classic.

[Califdan2]

Amen.  Totally agree.  

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Stil do not get also why you cannot upload full raw on classic (at least linked to your catalog). I will never subscribe to CC for that, but I would subscribe to the 1To plan tomorrow if this is allowed. To sync smart previews between phone and computer the 20Go is enough.
I really do not understand this keyword limitation. Does not really make sens and the technical explanation is BS.

[Jao vdL]

The full raw syncing thing is similar to the keyword thing. I have a request here that you should add your vote to: https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-classic-should-be-able-to-sync-full... but don't expect this to change as I think this ship sailed a long time ago. Still can't hurt to make sure they know it is something users want to see.

[Califdan2]

so, let's go down the list....

1)  Keywords in CC are flat, not hierarchical as they are in Classic. 
     Okay, Keywords in a JPG file are flat as well and LR seems to be able to bridge that gap OK.  On export, LR keywords are flattened.  On import JPG keywords already present in Classic are just used on the image wherever they are in the hierarchy and any new KW's in the JPG are added to the KW list at the the root level of the hierarchy.  So, they already have the algorithm to do this

2)  Adobe would like to minimize the use of KW's in CC (IMHO) and have people rely on their AI (Sensei) engine.  So, other than not wanting to expend resources on Keywords, is not a technical reason preventing the sync of KW's.  

3) Users may not want all their Keywords from Classic to migrate to the cloud.  This is a true statement.  But, right now, in many situations when you add an image to a synced collection at already copies Classic KW's to the cloud.  And, just adding a 4th check box to on keyword's  in Classic called "Sync this Keyword in Adobe Cloud" to decide whether or not to copy and sync each keyword with the cloud.  

4)  Keyword sync is too complex for the skill level of the programmers at Adobe.  Well, this is all we are left with as a "technical" reason not to sync keywords but is absolute nonsense.  If they can figure out how to sync all the complexities of image edits, doing the same thing with Keywords is trivial.  


So, no matter what they say about "technical reasons" - what they mean is "we don't want to spend any significant money on improving Classic as it will divert resources from CC development and we are trying to get people off of Classic and on to CC so why would be do something that would encourage people to stay on Classic?

It's as simple as that.

[Antoine HLMN]

Exactly !

And even: at first, they said it was a technical reason. No one believed it and now it is "by design" and "Classic will not get any new sync feature" and "switch to LR CC if you want more sync capabilities".

Your statement

what they mean is "we don't want to spend any significant money on improving Classic as it will divert resources from CC development and we are trying to get people off of Classic and on to CC so why would be do something that would encourage people to stay on Classic?

is exacly right. I would also add: "Adobe wants the users to switch to cloud also because it's more difficult to migrat to another solution afterwards!"

[Jerry Syder]

I'm not so sure if this is true because they are continuously adding new features to Classic. 

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

What I do not get is the attitude of Adobe, there is industrial secrets involved here. They can say something like “we want to bring all the (keys) possibilities of LR classic to CC little by little to this modern platform so nobody will need classic anymore. Therefore our focus is on making this a reality as soon as possible. The sync between classic and CC is more based on best effort.”
It would be clear for everybody.
The subscribion sheme imply a trusted partnership between us, clients and adobe.

[JohanElzenga]

What they say is that Lightroom Classic is the desktop oriented app and Lightroom CC is the cloud oriented app. They could have (and maybe they should have) removed all sync features from Lightroom Classic, to make it perfectly clear where this app stands. I’m glad that they didn’t do that, but the result is that people keep having expectations for new or improved sync features that will not arrive.

[andromedis]

If Adobe develops something new it should make sense to its users, right? That is my expectation and it is not being fulfilled at all. What sense does it make to have two independet solutions, if one could support the other? Everybody is talking about workflow and what does Adobe deliver? Workflowinteruptions! 
Sorry for being a bit emotional here, but it is true not "only" in this instance but also cannot sync libraries from LR CC cloudversion with Adobe Portfolio both ways, neither export file names into Adobe PF. So each single one a beautifully made app but they do not function together. 

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Johan Elzenga. You will not be able to buy Lightroom classic anymore. You need a plan to have it, a plan that include the cloud capabilities . A bit of consistency would be greats

[patrickhudgell]

It is still possible to buy Lightroom 6 perpetual licence here in the UK but I have heard rumours that may well be the last version. Sylvain, have you seen an official Adobe announcement that the non-CC version of Lightroom will be discontinued or are you just assuming that will happen?