P: Add Soft Proofing to Lightroom Desktop

[KG_BK]

Lightroom Cloud 2023 uses the ProPhoto RGB color space. This is a problem if you want to edit your photos for Instagram, which uses the sRGB color space (i.e. fewer colors). It's a problem because the entire time you're editing, you're seeing what your photo will look like in ProPhoto RGB, not sRGB. But as soon as you're done, and you export your photo to sRGB, you lose a ton of colors. And there appears to be no way to know which colors you'll lose until you go to export. 

I believe there is a setting called "soft proofing" in Lightroom Classic that shows which colors you will lose when exporting as sRGB. But this option does not exist in Lightroom Cloud.

Can someone tell me why this seemingly enormously important feature is left out of Lightroom Cloud? I have to suspect that a majority of people using Lightroom Cloud are uploading their pictures to Instagram. Isn't everyone disappointed then, after spending all that time editing, when they finally go to export as sRGB, and they lose all of those colors?

Or am I missing something? I am not an expert in color management. Only learning as I go. Thanks!

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Probably the biggest reason is few are asking for it. In 5 plus years, no one has managed to fill out a feature request for this functionality. I've converted your post to the authoritative feature request so that others can vote and add their voices. Please add your vote at the top. 

[JohanElzenga]

What you are seeing on your computer is not ProPhotoRGB. No screen in the world can display that. If you have a wide gamut monitor, then you do indeed see more colors than sRGB however. Many wide gamut monitors can be switched to sRGB, so you can 'soft proof' by doing that. Do not forget to change your monitor profile to sRGB too if you work this way. And do not forget to switch back to your custom monitor profile when you switch back the monitor to its native color. You do have a custom monitor profile, don't you?

[KG_BK]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography 

Thank you. And, wow. I wonder why they haven't. This is exactly what makes me think I must be missing something. A commenter below suggests switching my monitor to show only sRGB (and that does what I want!). Still, when I want to switch tasks and do other things on my computer apart from using Lightroom, unless I want only to see things in sRGB, I have to remember to switch the monitor back each time.  

[KG_BK]

@JohanElzenga 

Thank you! This solves the problem, though I still think Lightroom Cloud should have a proofing option, so I don't have to switch my monitor. (Unless... is switching the monitor standard workflow? Is that what most people are doing?)

I don't yet have my screen calibrated because I am brand new to all of this, so I'm still learning, but I plan to do it soon once I understand better what the best product for that is.

Even though I had been playing around in those monitor settings a few weeks back, I didn't know what I was doing, because I hadn't yet learned about color spaces, so now that I do, it makes total sense. The solution was under my nose the whole time! Thank you for prompting me to go back there! 

[Jim Wilde]

I don't yet have my screen calibrated because I am brand new to all of this, so I'm still learning, but I plan to do it soon once I understand better what the best product for that is.

By @KG_BK

And therein lies the real problem when we share images for viewing on a screen of some kind. The majority of users will not have calibrated their screens (many will not even have heard of screen calibration), so we have no control over how well (or badly) our images will look on their screens. So unless you know that a specific user uses a certain type of monitor, which is calibrated correctly, the best we can reasonable do when exporting for screen viewing is to export to sRGB and hope for the best.....after ensuring that our own screens are properly calibrated, of course.

[Jao vdL]

surprised there hasn't been a feature request before. I remember many times questions on this forum like "where did soft proofing go", "I am trying to soft proof but it is not where the video says it should be", etc. The answer invariably is that you need to use Classic of course but perhaps it should be that "for now it is a Classic only feature and you should submit a feature request."

[stefanm45872287]

The Lightroom cloud based app and its features have come along way and I really enjoy the direction Adobe went with it. Especially the latest features which add a seamless integration of local folder structures so you can easy edit and transfer files into and from the cloud. Lightroom really has become a photo culling software just like Bridge but with the power of a photo editor. I love this!

However, what really keeps me going back to Lightroom Classic time and again is the point that Adobe neglects soft proofing in Lightroom (cloud based) which is crucial to photographers like me who print their photos on a large scale. I really wish this feature to be added in the next release so I can finally make the switch.

I know you can argue that you can do the detour through Photoshop and do the proofing there but this voids the purpose of Lightroom's capabilities and their streamlined approach to photo editing.

[stefanm45872287]

I seriously have no clue how this feature is such a low priority and users must vote to have this added. It really bugs my mind! I have opened a thread for adding soft proofing to. the desktop app today and Rikk Flohr has been kind enough to merge my thoughts with this thread, however, seeing only 9 upvotes during the past 16 months for this request either makes me think no professional uses Lightroom desktop or no experienced users tries bothering with the Community boards at Adobe and either is like my using Lightroom Classic or Capt**e One 😉

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

@stefanm45872287 

I am not surprised at all. The lack of print capability in Lightroom Desktop seriously reduces the number of persons who would even need a Soft Proof function.

Additional information:
Even among Lightroom Classic customers, those using Soft Proofing (on purpose) are a small fraction of the user base - in the low single digits, percentage-wise.  Those who use it correctly are an even smaller fraction…

[stefanm45872287]

So basically you as an Adobe employee are suggesting to me to either ditch Lightroom desktop for Lightroom Classic or continue my journey? I mean I love the transparency but I would favor if Adobe could add the feature for the sake of working photographers.

Never been a big fan of Lightroom's printing option anyway but I tend to use Epson's print solution (they did an awesome job with this software) and need the soft proof option for large scale prints (A1 and larger) because I'm printing with my lab.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

@stefanm45872287 

Regarding: "So basically you as an Adobe employee are suggesting to me to either ditch Lightroom desktop for Lightroom Classic or continue my journey?" 

I suggested nothing of the sort.  I simply provided context to assuage your incredulity.

[Jao vdL]

My experience is that very few professional and working photographers do any soft proofing ever even if they do lots and lots of printing. It's just not something people do or are even aware of could improve their product. I agree that it is essential for myself (one of many reasons I use classic as my main repository and could't switch to mainly cloud based even if I really wanted to) so I get this as a pain point for anybody exclusively using cloud Lightroom. The reality is that it's a niche feature in Classic and Photoshop and this is apparently borne out by Adobe's usage data (they know how much these features are used by anonymous data collection from the apps). It would be even more niche if included in Cloud-based Lightroom which can't even print! The one place where it really makes a difference. @JohanElzenga already explained why for going to sRGB it is not that big of an issue as you can do the soft proof by switching the monitor's mode in general. What Johan didn't say is that it is actually quite rare to have significant colors in any real world image outside of sRGB so it is extremely rare that you see much happening when soft proofing to sRGB. There are a few pathological cases such as the specific teal color of Mediteranean and Carribean seas or highly saturated flower colors that tend to shift perceptably when going from full gamut display on a displayP3 or adobeRGB capable monitor to an soft proof in sRGB. but otherwise very few images show any significant differences. Also, the world is very clearly shifting to displayP3 as the de facto standard instead of sRGB with all browsers now finally correctly color managing and people generally now having monitors and device displays capable of showing that gamut so exporting in displayP3 instead of sRGB is not a bad idea anyway nowadays.

[alexandrej30933737]

Using this logic, I'm sure a very high number of features in Photoshop or Illustrator could be removed, because they are used by only a small fraction of users...

Adobe used to be professional tools, meaning they have everything a pro would ever need.

The strategy of Lightroom is a bit baffling; it really seems Lightroom was targeted at people taking pictures with their iPhone, and nothing more. Especially within the first year, where a surprising amount of standard features was missing.

That would honestly be fine, just as Premiere Rush can only be used to create Tik Toks... IF there would be a Lightroom Classic for iPad, and if Lightroom Classic PC hadn't become painfully slow, with an aging UI.

[Jao vdL]

Using this logic, I'm sure a very high number of features in Photoshop or Illustrator could be removed, because they are used by only a small fraction of users...

No that is not at all the same logic. Lightroom Cloudy never had soft proofing. Nothing was ever removed. Classic has perfectly fine soft proofing and is very actively developed and a great solution for when you need soft proof that is easier to use than using Photoshop. The argument is about whether you need to add soft proof to Lightroom Cloud. I would argue that would be desired but I completely understand that it is very low priority since so few people in the target audience actually use soft proofing and soft proofing is useless on iPads and Android tablets anyway which is half of the target of Lightroom Cloud. I would never argue that it should be removed from Classic or Photoshop. Now if Adobe decides to create a new lightweight, cloud-based, redesigned from the bottom, directed towards the instagram crowd, version of a Photoshop like program that also runs on iPads, I would completely expect them to not even bother with soft proofing for that. 

IF there would be a Lightroom Classic for iPad, and if Lightroom Classic PC hadn't become painfully slow, with an aging UI.

Strange that you say that as Classic is clealy the superior GUI of the two for professionals. The cloud version is very limited in features that are pretty essential for that and the interface is reflecting of that. Soft proofing makes zero sense on an iPad. There is no way that you can calibrate an iPad display so soft proofing is completely useless on it. I see zero difference in performance between Cloud Lightroom and Classic and I use both all the time. Cloud-based is a very capable companion to Classic for me especially on my iPad. Cloud can even be quite a bit less performant in its default settings due to often needing to fetch the raws from the cloud if you deal with lots of images at a time when running on the same hardware.

[Conrad C]

Soft proofing makes zero sense on an iPad. There is no way that you can calibrate an iPad display so soft proofing is completely useless on it.

By @Jao vdL 

This is changing…especially with the iPad Pro. The latest iPad Pro supports Reference Mode presets, based on what we already have in macOS for the Apple Pro Display XDR and Liquid Retina XDR displays:

Use Reference Mode on your iPad Pro  — Apple (bold formatting is mine)

Reference Mode enables your iPad Pro to match the color requirements of your workflow. It targets a D65 white point and disables all dynamic display adjustments for ambient surround, like True Tone, Auto-Brightness, and Night Shift. You can also adjust the white point and luminance manually. Unsupported formats are color managed as they would be in the default display mode.
You can also use Reference Mode with SideCar to create a consistent reference workflow across your iPad and Mac.

In addition, if your iPad Pro has an Liquid Retina XDR display or Ultra Retina XDR display, the Fine Tune Calibration feature has been brought over to iPad OS from macOS. That heading is further down in the link above…

Use Fine-Tune Calibration to maintain the reference color accuracy of your display by adjusting the white point and luminance. Input the values that you measure using an external instrument and test pattern. iPadOS automatically adjusts the display to match your white point and luminance target.

---

This seems to create an environment where soft-proofing is plausible on those iPads, and now we are waiting for more applications to catch up. (Affinity Photo on iPad offers it.)

Someone might still say “That is not like the custom ICC profile support we have on Mac/PC,” that is true, custom profile support is still a big hole in iOS. But as an environment for soft-proofing itself, it’s important to understand that on the desktop, soft-proofing became a “best practice” at a time (the 1990s/2000s) when most Mac/PC users had a somewhat dodgy CRT display that on average was far worse than we have today, with a smaller gamut and less consistent calibration at the factory, it would drift out of spec relatively quickly, and we had lower quality hardware and software for making our own custom profiles…and yet we said we could do soft-proofing. Today’s iPad displays are of a much higher default quality that what we had to work with back then; with that historical context in mind there is no more excuse to say the iPad isn’t good enough.

The old assumption that you have to want to print directly from the app to need soft-proofing is also no longer current, at all. One example we have seen from cloud Lightroom users is wanting to soft-proof against the printing conditions of a remote printing service. As another example, the users of Adobe pro video apps finally convinced Adobe to put in proper support for color management and soft-proofing after the new diversity in delivery media gamuts (home TV, cinema, streaming, phone…), and also the previewing demands of HDR video, made it clear that a multi-channel delivery workflow needs to be able to precisely simulate a range of diverse output conditions. This is why the iPad Pro Reference Modes include support for several different SDR and HDR pro video gamuts. Even if Lightroom can’t print, users doing multi-channel photo delivery workflows could use soft-proofing to simulate sRGB (since the iPad Pro display is wide gamut P3), HDR10, a remote printing gamut, etc.

So today, soft-proofing is possible in Adobe Premiere Pro and After Effects and not possible in Lightroom, and those other apps don’t print. It is one reason I still use Lightroom Classic.

[Jao vdL]

That is very cool and I had not heard about that all! The reference modes on the Mac Book Pros on the desktop are very very good and if this is anywhere near that, I would have to certainly take back that it is impossible as the top of the line iPads clearly might be able to do it and actually for it to be worthwhile. It might also make it possible to soft proof for sRGB right now in Lightroom running on those M4 iPads by simply changing the reference mode to sRGB, just like you can on Mac Book Pros and desktop Macs using XDR Apple displays currently.

[alexandrej30933737]

Let me rephrase it then from my point of view: I don't understand Lightroom "Cloud" existance.
It should have been simply a feature to sync albums. Especially since its already kinda does it.. just pushes only Smart Preview instead of full one.
I would have been fine with that if it was called Lightroom Rush or Express, and there would be a Lightroom Classic equivalent on iPad; I'm forced to use it just because of this.

The strategy is currently not very clear, especially since now Lightroom is not actually the Cloud version, as we can now edit from Local disk !

Regarding Photoshop, they pretty much already did it; the version on iPad is lacking a lot of things.

All other app providers are giving iPad users the full feature set, such as Affinity Photo. Even DaVinci, and its quite a complex app.

I wasn't arguing for soft-proofing on iPad, merely stating that I'm forced into the Cloud version because of it.
That being said, have a look at the measurements made by Linus Tech Tips on the iPad M4; only a Flanders Scientific Reference Monitor does better.
While I always go through my calibrated monitor before printing.. honestly, even with my old iPad M1 set in Reference Mode, there's little delta between the two.

Regarding the UI, I mentioned aging as in from a design perspective, not a completeness one. Otherwise, I fully agree with you.

On the performance, you're then one of the lucky ones; but quite a few people are reporting the same thing. To Adobe's credit, the last update where they clearly mentioned they worked on performance, but still not on par.

On my M1 Pro, switching photos whilst in Develop mode takes 4 to 5s (10s to 15s before latest update), and you often don't know on which picture you are in. This seems to be very dependant on the amount of local adjustment layers you have on the pictures; but the same pictures on Lightroom Cloud load blazing fast.