Having trouble printing black and white photography scans

[defaultjagl44beu3er]

Hello dear community,

My name is Oscar, I operate on MacOS and i've been working on a project for some time now which involves myself scanning some of my black and white photography from printed books, then editing them in photoshop, exporting them as cmyk images in pdf format, and then inserting them into an Indesign or Illustrator file to work on text editing and so forth, to then having them be exported again and getting them printed.

For today, I will use the following image as an example;

Here we have my file of a 'J-card', as you can see it is cmyk indicated by the blue folding lines

Here are its details: 

+ here are the details of the original scan, i.e. the image which was modified and then used for the jcard:

...Now once professionally printed, below would be my two outcomes;

the top is printed in cmyk and bottom is printed in greyscale.

As you will immediately see, the top looses a little contrast and includes a purplish hue, while the bottom image simply looses a lot of contrast yet displays grayscale colors.

Now, ideally, I'd like to have the final print look as close as possible to its digital counterpart, though in the past, I've always been left with mostly green or red hues, leaving me scratching my head as to how I could better prepare my files. 

It goes without saying that vector images and the likes are not affected, in other words, it has to do with the scanned images, and I would be forever thankful if someone could point me towards what I need to do or which tutorial I need to watch, in order to get the maximum out of my final prints, rather than being left with a greenish or purplish image that lacks contrast when printed in cmyk.

Thanks to anyone willing to help, I'll gladly share any needed additional information, (I've experienced this problem over multiple Ps/Id/Ai iterations). 

Best,

O.

[D Fosse]

Are you using the correct CMYK profile throughout? You need to ask the printer which one to use. With the right profile, there should normally not be any noticeable color cast.

There is little point in placing a PDF in InDesign. Just place RGB images, and export a press-ready PDF from ID, with the correct destination CMYK profile. Desaturate the RGB image before placing in InDesign, just to make sure the file is really monochrome (but still RGB).

(Optionally, although it should normally not be necessary, you can then convert to (the right) CMYK in Photoshop, and add a Selective Color adjustment. Choose Neutrals, lower C M and Y, and increase Black. Make sure you're not going over the ink limit for the CMYK profile, while still retaing a good four color black.)

Grayscale placed in InDesign will print K-only, and the black ink alone simply has a very high black level, resulting in a muddy undefined look with poor contrast. So I'd avoid that. You need four color rich black.

[defaultjagl44beu3er]

Thank you for your reply, here are my color settings;

Ps color settings:

Id color settings:

The CMYK settings are different, thus this might be the issues? I've changed both to FOGRA 39 as this is the printing standard in Europe. 

Could you explain the desaturation step? It results in the image looks reddish, and it stays red when importing into Id or Ps, is this intended?

Best,

O.

[D Fosse]

The color settings aren't really important here. What matters is the profile embedded in the file - this profile will override your color settings.

Problems happen if there is no embedded profile. That's when the working space comes in, as a fallback default. Then you might get differences - but this is not a problem as long as there is a profile (and policies are always kept at "preserve embedded profiles). Then the numbers get remapped from one into the other, and general appearance is maintained.

Could you explain the desaturation step? It results in the image looks reddish, and it stays red when importing into Id or Ps, is this intended?

By @defaultjagl44beu3er

That's why I specifically said to desaturate in RGB.

CMYK inks are not equally intense, the cyan ink needs higher percentage than M and Y. So when you desaturate in CMYK, the cyan component is too low and you get the reddish cast.

[defaultjagl44beu3er]

Thank you so much.

so I've desaturated the rgb, and then when saving the pdf, what are the right boxes to tick under color? if I am loading the pdf into Ai od Id next and want to have the image print as it looks in Ps;

I I use convert to destination and include destination profile, again my image is shown in the wrong color, thus only if I do not include these is my image shown correct in Ai/Id. Can I thus now expect that the image will print this way. How do I export the file correctly from here on?

This should hopefully be my last question, thank you for your valuable support.

[PECourtejoie]

Hi, as indicated, you would simplify everything if you were placing an RGB image file (for color scans, or greyscale for B&W) , such as a .tiff in Id, then convert to the correct profile..

Do get in touch with the service bureau to get the profile to use in the final conversion.

[D Fosse]

Yes, absolutely agree with PEC. There is no reason to place PDF in InDesign. Keep it simple, and place RGB.

Then, when you have the correct CMYK profile from the printer, you can export a press-ready PDF from InDesign.

InDesign will perform the necessary conversion to CMYK as it exports the PDF.

[PECourtejoie]

The advantage of a RGB workflow is lighter files, and the possibility to export an RGB PDF to be seen on screen, without the reduced colors of a CYMK file...

[NB, colourmanagement]

D Fosse writes: "You need four color rich black"

YEP, totally agree with that

PEC writes: "The advantage of a RGB workflow is lighter files"

Just for clarity - I am presuming that he means "lighter" in terms of storage use as RGB files are inevitably smaller than a CMYK of the same image - rather than meaning "lighter" in appearance

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer:: co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[defaultjagl44beu3er]

Thank you, you two. 

As mentioned, my workflow requires me to edit the image in Ps before placing it into Id/Ai.

From now on, once I get the colors/contrast/etc. right in Ps, I will export the file as a desaturated RGB TIFF file, and not as a PDF file - then I will drop it into Ai/Id. 

When exporting from Ai/Id, I want to make sure that I have the correct color settings before exporting the PDF, and during export, I want to select 'color conversion' - 'convert to destination' - 'CMYK', so that my desaturated RGB is exported as a print ready CYMK file.

I will try following these steps, do a reprint, and let you both know how it comes out 🙂

[PECourtejoie]

Hi, how are you printing?

if on a consumer inkjet or laser printers, they expect RGB files, even if they use CYMK inks/toner.

[NB, colourmanagement]

"Could you explain the desaturation step? It results in the image looks reddish, and it stays red when importing into Id or Ps, is this intended?"

If a desaturated RGB image looks reddish in Photoshop then there's very likely something amiss with colour management, my first port of call would be to make sure the display profile is good.

Try viewing the Adobe RGB test image here - is the nude image also reddish? That’s a monochrome RGB image, so should look neutral as should the greyscale gradated strip along the top.

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer:: co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[defaultjagl44beu3er]

Thank you, I had spoken to early as it looks reddish in CMYK, but not in RGB.

The nude image is back and white 🙂

[NB, colourmanagement]

Ah, right, desaturating in CMYK doesnt work as you might expect it to

SO desaturating in RGB fixes your issue? I hope so 

neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer:: co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[defaultjagl44beu3er]

Thank you,

When saving my tiff file in Ps and then finalizing my file in Ai, should I be working in RGB document color mode, and then export as CMYK, or work in the CMYK color mode? 

Seeing that my images are now RGB, they are displayed and exported in off colors if I am working in and/or exporting as CMYK in Ai. See the image below; from the RGB Ps tiff – to the same image loaded into Id with CMYK color mode – to the final pdf CMYK file;

While the image is naturally displayed correctly in RGB mode, it also ends up with the same greenish color once exported as CMYK, thus highlighting my core issue.

Now that being said, the issue is less apparent in Id, yet here I have no option to choose between CMYk and RGB when exporting the file via defined presets, unless I export as jpeg where I am then given the option; and when doing so, my RGB file is perfectly converted to a CMYK file without any color loss or change.

[NB, colourmanagement]

You write: " While the image is naturally displayed correctly in RGB mode, it also ends up with the same greenish color once exported as CMYK, thus highlighting my core issue. "

How are you viewing the CMYK image? is it looking green when displayed in Photoshop? 

Of course if you make a print, then the printer profile accuracy comes into question.

BUT there's no way converting an RGB (desaturated) image to CMYK using a good FOGRA39L based ICC profile should produce an on-screen image [on a well calibrated/ profiled display] with a cast.

Euroscale Uncoated, wow that’s an ancient ICC, I'm really surprised anyone's still using that. 

Please tell us where you are seeing this green cast?

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer:: co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[TheDigitalDog]

The problem is certainly an output profile "issue" if your desaturated images (CMYK or ,RGB the later being what you probably should be using). Even when R=G=B (neutral) in an RGB Working Space, it must be converted to some output color space from that, color casts can show up due to either (or both) that output profile or the behavior of the device. 

Even with the best quality output profile, you'll never get dead nuts neutral over the entire press sheet of say an HP Indigo; it will alter between neutral and Green/Magenta in some areas of output. 

With good profiles (or a process like the Epson Advanced B&W mode for some of their printers), R=G=B can create dead nuts neutral output on a print. 

We need to know a LOT more about how and where this project is outputting. And if you have a good profile for it and are using that for conversions from the Working Space.

[defaultjagl44beu3er]

I can't thank you all enough for your continued aid.

Now in Layman's terms, please let me know what exact info you require from me, so that we can source the output profile issue and find a solution.

To start, in Ps I am using....

Color space: RGB and FOGRA39

Source space: dot gain 20% profile

Destination space:working gray 20% dot grain profile 

Don't ask me why my destination space is a working gray profile rather than sRGB. This could be the issue. Attached below is my current convert to profile window;

[TheDigitalDog]

Why FOGRA39? Your print provider provided this for you?

[defaultjagl44beu3er]

Hello,

In this case, I am working on a printed CMYK reversed cardboard cover, as well as printed CMYK labels for a vinyl record.

The image in question showcases the labels, i.e. the stickers on the A and B side of the record. These require, as stated by the printers, a FOGRA39 color profile, while the reversed cardboard cover requires an Euroscale uncoated profile. (I am based in Europe)

That being said, I usually work with local printers on cassette covers, as highlighted in my original case, and here my default is usually FOGRA39.

[TheDigitalDog]

It doesn't matter where you are, you need the actual print provider to supply the correct output profile for the print conditions.  So is this the case? The actual output device behaves exactly as this FOGRA39 is defined.  This alone could be a huge reason why you're not getting a neutral output. You need to talk with the specific print provider and get specific instructions for how to convert to CMYK with a supplied profile. IF indeed your print supplier provided this specific recipe for CMYK conversions AND you're getting this color cast, you need to be talking to them about why this is happening. 

Photoshop has no idea what to do in converting an image to any color space. It does what you tell it to do and if the exact recipe for CMYK isn't ideal, or you're not getting a contract proof, there isn't anything we can do here to assist.

See:

http://digitaldog.net/files/CMYKPart1.pdf

http://digitaldog.net/files/CMYKPart2.pdf