"Ducking" doesn't work when Audio Track Keyframes is selected

[hellopaul4]

There seems to be no way of auto-generating "ducking" audio track keyframes. I can create clip keyframes ok.

Steps to reproduce:
1. In Essentail Sound, assign "Dialogue" and "Music" to a couple of clips on tracks.
2. Set the track containing the music to show Track Keyframes > Volume

3. Click on "Select Clips with Tag: Music" to select the music clip(s)

4. Click on "Generate Keyframes"

Result:

Nothing happens

Expected:

Track Volume keyframes should be generated
 
System info
    Application: Premiere Pro (Beta) v23.2.0.23
    OS: Windows v10.0.19044, RAM: 127.92 GB GB, CPUs (logical): 32

[R Neil Haugen]

Correct. ESP stuff is totally clip based, never track based. I've asked about that and was told that it has to be clip based, as it is totally dependent on what is going on with the pair of clips at that moment.

Neil

[Baffy19]

It is necessary to select all the clips on a track or tracks of the same character (for example, a dialog), and then go to the Essential Sound panel and make it clear the type of source there. The second step is to select the musical compositions on the track/tracks and determine the source type in Essential Sound. Then just activate the Audio Ducking function.

[hellopaul4]

I wouldn't have thought it'd be a big leap of coding for PPro, once the keyframes have been auto-generated, to then just apply those exact keyframes to the track rather than the clip.

[hellopaul4]

@Baffy19 Thanks, but I know how to use the ducking function. The issue is that it's impossible to apply the keyframes to the track rather than the clip(s).

[Baffy19]

Engineers have something to pay attention to to improve the automation and convenience of the process. I think your judgment is correct, and I will explain why it is important to have Audio Ducking at the track level. This will allow you to use the attenuation tool more globally and replace clips on the timeline for various situations (for example, the sound engineer did not like the music or you need to simulate a different version of the track) while keeping the keys in the same positions on the timeline. Now, such an opportunity is available only if you create keys yourself at the track level.

[R Neil Haugen]

The way the ducking works though is dependent on the clips. It's set to duck any track assigned to X type to what is happening in "this" clip at this time.

But both are totally clip dependent, aren't they?

As if you move the dialogue clip, the places on that track where you need ducking just moved, right?

And the ducking is set for certain amounts below the dialogue. So ... if you swap out say music or ambient tracks, they will not have precisely the same levels, so the ducking amounts will be different.

I suppose if you guarantee you will not move or in any way alter the dialogue track from X point on, you could set the locations of the ducking on other track types. But the amounts would still change due to the media itself changing.

Neil

[Baffy19]

If Ducking had affected the track, as mentioned @hellopaul4 , it would have been possible to change the music video without affecting the dialog track, since the track data would have been blocked. That's the point of influencing the track, not the clip as it is now.

[R Neil Haugen]

I'm not being difficult, I'm trying to understand how that would work for practical reasons.

For instance, ducking doesn't affect the dialogue track, it affects the others, which you duck under it. Right?

And again, if you change the music or an ambient clip, whatever is ducked, that will not have the same levels in the exact same places, will it? So why would you apply the same ducking to it?

If your ducking is set to dropping things say 11dB under the dialog, and that was simply applied to the track ... that could work well with one clip. But if that's relatively low levels clip, coming in at -20 dB to begin with, and you then use a much louder clip, dropped only 11dB, might well be a lot louder in perception.

So the keyframes for where and how much duck is needed would need to be recomputed. As it maybe took very little duck at any one moment with the softer clip, it will take a lot more duck with a louder clip.

Doesn't that make sense? That changing the clip itself requires new computations?

Neil

[Baffy19]

@R Neil Haugen 

"And again, if you change the music or an ambient clip, whatever is ducked, that will not have the same levels in the exact same places, will it? So why would you apply the same ducking to it?"

If based on the data of the counters, then of course the clip will sound quieter compared to another loud one, in case of replacement. But, the point is that here we get flexibility in replacing the clip without recalculating Ducking moments, since all data will be taken from the dialog track. The position of the Ducking keys on the timeline will not change from this. We will only raise the level of the track in case of replacement with a quieter track, which will allow us (typing error) ALLOW US NOT to recalculate Ducking again. It is not necessary to remove the function of influencing the clip at all, this is not the point. I'm talking about the flexibility of this function.

[R Neil Haugen]

And as you note, you'll have to analyze/key again ... so I'm mystified what is 'saved'.

Neil

[hellopaul4]

@R Neil Haugen I think you're overestimating the power of the auto-ducking function. From looking at the keyframes that get auto-generated, PPro does not take into account the loudness of the music - it just 'ducks' it by the amount specified in the Essential Sound panel, regardless of the loudness of that specific chunk of music. So if some dialogue comes in over a particularly quiet sectoin, it'll get ducked by (for example - I think it's the default setting) 18dB. If the dialogue is over a really loud bit of music, it will also be ducked by 18dB. Unless I'm mistaken and someone from Adobe can clarify?

So having the volume keyframes on the track (not the clip) would allow me to try out different pieces of music (something I do very regularly) without having to recalculate and manually adjust the keyframes. OR having the ability to copy keyframes from a clip and paste them onto a track. I accept that having a different music clip on the track may not sound perfect, but it's a good starting point.

[R Neil Haugen]

I've noted in the past that in looking at the keyframe line on the track, it has seemed to be different in different sections ... haven't actually checked one recently though.

Neil

[Baffy19]

NO NEED TO RECALCULATE AGAIN. JUST ONE TOUCH TO CORRECT THE LINE THAT WAS OUTLINED AT THE FIRST LAUNCH OF DUCKING. AND THE CLIP AS NOW NEEDS TO BE RECALCULATED AGAIN.

[hellopaul4]

I'd STILL like this to be an option! I am, once again, trying out different music clips against an interview, and want to apply my ducking keyframes to the TRACK and not the CLIP. That way, I could easily delete the music clip from the track, drop a new one on there, and it would be ducked in all the right places. PPro does oto need to know or care what clip I have on my music track - it just does the ducking at the TRACK level, regardless of what music is on the track. The ducking keyframes that PPro creates are in no way related to what's on the music track - they depend solely on the presence of dialogue and the settings in the Ducking panel. Talking of those controls - the "Sensitivity" is the wrong way round - setting it to High creates fewer keyframes, and setting it to "Low" creates a keyframe for even the briefest pause in the dialogue.

It would be wonderful if we had two "Generate Keyframes" buttons: one that says "Generate Clip Keyframes" and one that says "Generate Track Keyframes"...and did just that! Or at least if PPro had the ability to copy keyframes from a clip to a track, that would mean I'd only have to do the ducking process once, then I could copy the clip keyframes to the track, then delete the keyframes from the clip. And then do whatever I liked with the clip(s) (eg. extending it via Remix) knowing that my ducking keyframes are safely tucked away on the track.