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capturing analog video

Participant ,
Dec 15, 2021 Dec 15, 2021

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hello, after years of procrastination I am finally and currently digitizing old 8mm video tapes and old vcr tapes using an elgato "video video capture" device. (by the way, not interested in sending the tapes to a transfer house) If i want to divide the finsihed product into different parts what is the best way of doing that without losing the already mediocre standard definition quality. Is it better to edit it  through PP and then export or is there any software recomendations that will cut the clip in parts without reencdoing which i assume would degrade the quality even more? Thanks for any suggestions

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Advisor ,
Dec 15, 2021 Dec 15, 2021

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From what I see online the Elgato devices capture H.264 at 1.4 Mbits 640x480 or 640x360 resolution ...

so you are starting with a fairly low datarate and a resolution below standard SD - which is 720x486 (or 720x576 PAL).

So, yes I would suggest you edit your clips to what you want in Premiere Pro but make sure you use a higher datarate when exporting. You could export to (for example) 'Prores' to maintain the initially encoded quality. But this will create much larger file sizes and has limitations that may be an issue for you.

I think in your case you probably should export using H.264 at high quality. 

Encoding to H.264 will give you MP4 video clips that everyone can easily view, share, upload to YouTube etc.

(whereas Prores is not going to be a file you can easily share).

 

One of the reasons to go with higher datarates for you exports is; Stanadard Definition analogue formats like 8mm/VHS have a lot of video noise. And the cameras of that era were also noisy. Video noise compressed to lower datrates will look worse.

 

All that said - experiment!. Digitise your footage and test various export settings from Premiere Pro.

If you want to spend some money, there are some video noise reduction plugins for Premiere Pro that may improve the look of your footage.

 

Another option is the excellent Topaz Video Enhance AI application. It's a standalone app that can upres footage, denoise video and remove interlacing. It can also do 'in' & 'out' simple edits.

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Participant ,
Dec 16, 2021 Dec 16, 2021

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thx for your helpful answer. when u suggest exporting using h264 at high quality I assume that is h264 match source-high bit rate. Or did you mean high quality 480 sd as a preset?

I experimented with several formats and presets with a 10 minuute clip captured on the elgato. I tried h264 with both 'high bitrate' and 'high quality sd' presets, I also tried mpeg2 blu ray, mpeg2 dvd and prores 422.

Theblue ray and pro res as you stated had much higher file sizes than the others. For some reeason ive always been stuck on this notion that the hgiher the bit rate and size the better the quality.

I watched and compared all clips with an untrained eye and just when I thought one clip looked better than another, I would change my mind when watching again. Because its captured from 20+ year old analog tape it all looked pretty crappy but acceptable for family reminscing. SO I will continue my project slowly but surely.

 

Two other members recommended shutterencoder and lossless cut (which I thank them for). One question I have is if I experiment deleting parts of a clip using those 2 software how do you think it would compare to deleting parts of a clip using Premier Pro? The fact that PP woul have to be exported (reencoded?) would that give me the same result as using something like the 2 sotware recommended. Theoretically speaking, is there a difference or is it a wash because the original quality is standard def? Just curious as to peoples opinions. thanks much. 

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Advisor ,
Dec 16, 2021 Dec 16, 2021

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the only difference between the H.264 'match source-high bit rate' preset and the '480SD' preset is the datarate - 10Mbits for the first and 3Mbits for 480SD. I think 3Mbits is a bit low for noisey analogue SD but perhaps 10Mbits is too high. IF final size is an issue for you (i.e. 10Mbit is creating file sizes larger than you want) try around 5-7MBits. There's a 'video' tab in the export window and if you scroll down you can change the 'Target Bitrate' slider to any amount you want. Once you find a happy medium - save that setting as your own preset.

 

Since you are starting with fairly low quality, going with a higher bit rate on export does only one thing:

it prevents any further loss of quality introduced from compression artifacts from re-encoding.

BUT there's a limit. Once you pass a certain threshold - increasing datarate even more will have no impact on visual quality. That's probably why you are having a hard time seeing the difference between different presets.*

 

And when you compare (say) Prores to H.264 you see (as you note) massive file size differences. But keep in mind - just because the Prores is bigger does not always mean it's automatically better than the H.264 (in your case).

H.264 is a very efficient codec. It's designed to be a small, (and often) high quality delivery format. Prores is designed for maximum quality, editing efficiency and minimum compression artifacts.

 

Regarding Shutter encoder and Lossless Cut. Have not used either but suspect they would be more than fine. 

Data rate noted above would apply to these programs as well. 

 

An advantage in Premiere Pro are the built in tools (Like Lumetri) that would allow you to do a quick colour grade on your footage. Indoor analogue footage might benefit from some colour correction and exposure on darker shots etc.

 

Good luck. There's a lot of stuff I've not included in this post as you've actually asked some questions that have very deep answers (we've not even mentioned 'interlacing' yet 🙂 but come back with more queries if you need info.

 

* a great trick to 'see' what difference a re-encode has over the original is; import the new encoded file back into Premiere Pro, drop that clip exactly over the top of the original clip(s) in your sequence (it has to line up perfectly). With the imported re-coded file selected now go to 'effects controls' and change the 'opacity' 'blend mode' to 'difference'.

Your Premiere pro program monitor should now be mostly black. Where ever you see a hint of an image indicates a difference between the two clips.

 

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Participant ,
Dec 17, 2021 Dec 17, 2021

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thanks for your generous answer. I have some more experimenting to do. I appreciate your help.

 

Learning  PP reminds me of a saying from Einstein:

"The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know"

 

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Guide ,
Dec 17, 2021 Dec 17, 2021

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If the video files are interlaced I would put them in a 60P timleline if the final destination is social media. If the destination is DVD or Blu-ray just use an interlaced timeline. I use a Firewire based DV converter myself. You can see the results near the end of the video. Perhaps your method will produce better results. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLUxRkPMdA

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Participant ,
Dec 28, 2021 Dec 28, 2021

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is there a way to import my elgato analog capture straight into Prmier Pro rather than using the elgato software. I called tech support and they suggested I ask the community-they did not have that expertise.  thanks

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Guide ,
Dec 28, 2021 Dec 28, 2021

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The cheap USB capture cards do not have drivers that are written for Premeire Pro.

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Participant ,
Dec 31, 2021 Dec 31, 2021

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Thanks Im still working on learning how to use the best software for capturing and processing from my elgato before I put it in PP.  I  first tried virtualDub and then I tried virtualdub2. Its a learning curve for me but I am getting some more help from the  AVS forum. I wanted to tell you that  after hours of trying to experiment with the above mentioned ( and sometinmes buggy) software and feeling  burnt out I did download a trial version of Topaz Enhance AI. I followed their in app recomendations for presets for analog and I processed a 17 minute video that I had captured with elgato (into avi then handbrake into mp4). The end result was indeed a nicer sharper video clip but much to my surprize it literally took over 5 hours to process a 17 minute video. Im sure im not understanding the potential of this AI but what I experienced is totally impractical so at this  point thats not something I would use. A 2 hour clip would take days. Im going to continue  to experiment until I feel comfortable with a nice workflow.  Thanks

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Guide ,
Jan 01, 2022 Jan 01, 2022

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You should post your results. I have not done a VHS transfer in over 2 years but I still think the Firewire DV converters are the best option. 

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Participant ,
Jan 02, 2022 Jan 02, 2022

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To be more precise I have 8mm and Hi8mm video tapes from 20 years ago. They were originally created on a sharp ViewCam model number VL-AH15OU  I still have the camera and recently tuned up. There is one audio/video cable. One end plugs into the a/v cable port of the camera and the other end is one mono audio and one video composite (or RCA?) cable --one yellow and one white. The 2 cable ends plug into my elgato capture device. I have no s-video port on camera. Its analog and the device captures the footage and processes into MP4. And thats it. Ive been experimenting using different software (from Elgato's) like VD and VD2 thinkiing I would have more options with varying compression codecs and deintelacing option to get rid of combing effects on the edges. The other software has been very buggy and I dont have the expertize to know what Im doing to experiment. Im starting to think that I should just be happy with the elgato software because its stable. My question to you is how can a Firewire DV convertor be applicable in my situation? Thanks. 

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Guide ,
Jan 02, 2022 Jan 02, 2022

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How would a Firewire DV converter help you out? Did you watch my video?

You connect the audio and video cables form the Hi-8 camera to the DV converter. You then connect the Firewire cable from the DV converter to the PC. It is that simple. The video files will be in the DV-25 codec. Interlaced is what you want. Leave it as interlaced video in a 1080i sequence if you want to create a Blu-ray disk. If you want to post on social media you can use a 1080P sequence at 60 FPS. It is that simple. The video below might be worth watching. I don't recommend using cheap USB video capture cards for a reason. You can buy the Firewie DV converters used on ebay. It will be the easiest method when using Premiere Pro, FCPX and iMovie. 

On a side note Warren recomended using a Digital-8 camera for pass through. You can use most Firewire based cameras that way. It will have the exact same result as using a Firewire DV converter. I don't recommend the Blackmagic Products because the ones I tested needed a TBC. Warren stated the Blackmagic Desing Intensity Pro 4K can capture old VHS tapes without a TBC. I would asks the folks at Blackmagic Desing if that is correct before buying it. Having said that some camcorders and VCRs have a TBC built in. Yours might. If it does the Blackmagic Products will work. You can buy a used Intenisty Shuttle on ebay for pretty cheap. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsDTDkaqmpI

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Community Expert ,
Jan 02, 2022 Jan 02, 2022

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DV-NTSC is an intraframe CODEC with a 5:1 compression ratio requiring a modest 3.6 Mb/second sustained data transfer rate.  Two and a half decades ago, it revolutionalized digital video editing.  If it was 1998, a FireWire DV converter would be top choice for 8mm and Hi8 analog video to digital video conversion.

 

If the intended delivery is desktop video, 480i60 DV-NTSC (0.91) needs to be de-interlaced, pixel aspect ratio corrected , and optionally (bur rcommended) cropped for overscan to become 480p30 (1.0).  It should be done in that order as well either to an edited master DV file or via custom Sequence settings.   If it happens to be DV wide or DV letterbox, that can be addressed as well.  Your Sharp ViewCam shot  4:3 (1.33) full frame so your resulting DV files would be DV full.

 

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Guide ,
Jan 03, 2022 Jan 03, 2022

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Warren, please watch my video. If after watching my video you come to the conclusion you have a method that is easier, yields better results and interacts with Premiere Pro better than my method then please post a few samples of your results as well as a tutorial. 

Warren, you just posted.

"If it was 1998, a FireWire DV converter would be top choice for 8mm and Hi8 analog video to digital video conversion". 

In another post your wrote.

" If you happen to have access to a Digital8 camcorder with DV pass-through, that's probably your best bet for recapturing the tapes via Premiere Pro's DV capture; however you'll need to have FireWire or Thunderbolt with the right adapters to FireWire".  

Just so you know using a Firewire camcorder in pass-through mode will yield the same result as using a DV converter. I mention this in most of my videos but sometime I forget. That being said your method is for exporting at 480P. Who exports at 480P in the year 2022? Keep in mind I did not follow your instructions at all but I have no interlacing artifacts and decent image quality. How can you explain that considering you stated everyting must be done as you described? Keep in mind I am not saying my method is the best. Simply place your VHS tapes in a 1080P sequence and zoom in 80%. Let us see the results and let people judge for themselves if your method is better. Perhaps it is. I am always looking to learn new things but I cannot just take your word for it nor should anyone else. 

You claim I am using my Intensity Shuttle incorrectly. The staff at Blackmagic Design has stated their product require a TBC. How can you explain that Warren? Please tell me what I am doing wrong. Or even better. I want you to capture Hi-8 tapes from a Hi-8 camera using your Intensity Pro 4K. I want you to capture the video with the TBC enabled and then capture the video with the TBC disabled and let us see the results. I bet your video will yield the same results as my video. Having said that I will admit it is possible the Intensity Pro 4K is the only product from Blackmagic Design that does not need a TBC but I cannot take your word for it nor should anyone else. If you can demonstrate the Intensity Pro 4K works without a TBC (it might but I need proof) I will suggest the Intensity Pro 4K instead of the Firewire based DV converters from 1998. As a professional video editor you should be able to create the video in 20 minutes. Why not educate us all?  As I stated I am always willing to learn but I cannot take your word for it. I need proof as should everyone else.

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Community Expert ,
Jan 05, 2022 Jan 05, 2022

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@Andy 1968 

 

DV transformed video editing as we knew it, but it's a legacy format.  

 

Anyone with anything important on tape that hasn't been transferred or captured should do so immediately by whatever method best matches their source tapes or by whatever hardware that they have available (if that happens  to be DV, great) with consideration for what the intended use is.

 

 

-Warren

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LEGEND ,
Jan 05, 2022 Jan 05, 2022

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Great advice, Warren.

I have re-captured 50 of my 65 DV tapes. And all 22 of my analog 8mm tapes. Some were captured for clients and family years ago, but many were not. Many of those client captures were deleted after a year. I started re-capturing everything recently because I encountered a tape that was degraded/degrading beyond any error correction during playback. I got scared, which was great motivation! 😀

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Community Expert ,
Dec 15, 2021 Dec 15, 2021

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Have a look at this:

https://www.shutterencoder.com/en/

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LEGEND ,
Dec 15, 2021 Dec 15, 2021

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Also look at Lossless Cut

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Community Expert ,
Dec 28, 2021 Dec 28, 2021

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The Elgato USB2 Video Capture device is pretty good, but it's really just meant for capturing the tape, trimming the head and the tail, and then exporting to MP4 (as I'm sure you've noticed).  It would be really great if Elgato added an Extract option for removing segments within the capture before exporting it to a stand alone MP4 file.  It's also important to note that the Elgato software de-interlaces the footage and crops for overscan resulting in a 480p29.97 clip.

 

You can import the captures that you've exported from Elgato directly into a Premiere Pro project.  Select one of the MP4s in the Project tab and then right-click to choose New Sequence from Clip.  Rename the resulting Sequence with a descriptive name and edit the clips as you'd like.  Repeat as needed for as many Sequences as needed.

 

When you're ready to export the Sequence, choose File > Export > Media.  In the Premiere Pro Export dialog box, you have a few options.  Setting the Format to H264 and the Preset to Match Source - High Bit Rate is probably the easiest, but you could use the Match Source - Adaptive High Bit Rate preset for a smaller file or any of the presets with "SD 480" in the name (but not "SD 480 Wide").  If you really want to keep the file size small, you could use HEVC H265 for a more efficient but less compatible file (that is, the file will be smaller but it'll only play on devices that support H265).

 

As far as quality goes, you are taking a H264 compression generation hit.  That is what it is unless you reacapture your Regular 8 tapes and VHS tapes with a higher end video capture device.  If you decide to take that route, look into a capture device that allows you to capture SD via S-Video/RCA to Apple ProRes422 LT.  I really like Blackmagic Design's products (https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensitypro4k) - just be sure to use their included Media Express software for the SD ProRes captures.  If you happen to have access to a Digital8 camcorder with DV pass-through, that's probably your best bet for recapturing the tapes via Premiere Pro's DV capture; however you'll need to have FireWire or Thunderbolt with the right adapters to FireWire.  If you go the route of recapturing your tapes to a higher end format, the Premiere Pro part is more or less the same:  Import the captured clips, right-click and choose New Sequence from Clip, etc., etc.

 

 

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Guide ,
Dec 28, 2021 Dec 28, 2021

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The Blackmagic Design products require a TBC.  My video demonstrates this and that is why I cannot recommend any of the Intensity Products from Blackmagic Design. Some VCRs will have a built in TBC but most will not. 

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Community Expert ,
Dec 28, 2021 Dec 28, 2021

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Andy, that's not true.  Your video showing problems with Blackmagic Intensity capture does a great job of showing how to incorrctly use the Intensity product line with Premiere Pro.

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Guide ,
Dec 29, 2021 Dec 29, 2021

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Watch the videos below Warren. Are those people using the Intensity Shuttle incorrectly? If so what are they doing wrong? Please educate us. Why do the folks at Blackmagic say the Intensity Shuttle requires a TBC? I will admit the Intensity Pro 4K may not need a TBC. I will contact the folks at Blackmagic Design to find out for sure and post their response here. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk_7zBj0Q9w


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccR-J8mwH6k




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Mentor ,
Dec 28, 2021 Dec 28, 2021

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Unless the elgato hardware explicitly says it supports 10 bit, you would have to assume its only h.264 8 bit. Exporting to a 10 bit codec would be a waste of space.

For ease of use, if premiere could natively import the h.264 files, you'd have to export out a lossless codec at full 4:4:4 RGB at 8 bit which would make large file sizes or try a high datarate 4:2:2 codec at slight quality loss. If you can edit and then export directly to dvd, that's another option as well. I'm a stickler for 0% loss of quality, even if I can't see it, my computer does, expecially when its trying to compress down to DVD-mpeg2, I want every last gigawatt of quality I can get. If you need offline clips stored losslessly, two codecs I like are quicktime png video and huffyuv video both full 4:4:4 RGB at 8 bit. or Png/Tiff image sequences with lzw lossless compression enabled.

 

As for the capturing at interlaced, that doesn't really make any sense for film. Hopefully, the capturing device is storing the fields in NTSC encoding as progressive fields, which means you don't need to deinterlace as both fields are captured at the same moment in time and thus frame independment and can simply be treated as a whole frame in time. (since deinterlacing would throw away half your resolution) If you had to deinterlace, use topaz as adobe just blends the fields. or compare with qtgmc deinterlacing but that works at YUY2(which may still be better)

 

If you could work the files entirely inside shutter encoder, you might be able to clip them without re-encoding. This would depend on if they were natively supported for lossless clipping.

 

As a final note, I would never capture anything analog into an interframe codec. interframe codecs cannot handle rapid motion and may create tearing artifacts. I'd only capture with intraframe 'I' frames.

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Guide ,
Dec 28, 2021 Dec 28, 2021

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Could anyone please post a sample of their method in action? I would like to see a sample of VHS upscaled by 80%. 

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Community Expert ,
Dec 28, 2021 Dec 28, 2021

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The Elgato Video Capture device yields 640-by-480 progressive H264 at 29.97 fps.  Video Enhance AI will likely improve the picture quality a little bit.

 

There's a free trail of Topaz Labs Video Enhance AI.

 

The host system must meet the system requirements and it's very important to know that high-quality upconversion, even with H264 source, is very, very slow.

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