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color grading - reference monitor

Participant ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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is there a way, while coloring in pr, to have your reference monitor follow one shot behind you on the timeline? the only way i've been able to do that is to gang, then ungang, then click the next clip, then repeat. this way feels very combersome. 

thanks for any help!!!

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LEGEND ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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Have you tried Comparison View? It is specifically designed for this kind of work in Color Correcting:

https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/how-to/frame-comparison-view.html 

MtD

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Participant ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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i can't get the window large enough in comparison view to see what i'm doing. am i missing something?

 

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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the reference monitor originally was meant to be a panel that you could drag into a secondary ( or third) monitor to check the last frame of your playback against the color and so on WITH the primary one you use. So, if you have a color calibrated primary monitor and a TV hooked up to HDMI ( for example) you could drag that panel into the other 'monitor' or 'TV' to check that frame... it never was meant to show playback.. but only the last frame of your playback when you play your timeline footage.

If the primary is set to rec 709 and the TV is also rec 709, then you could sorta check if it's really working to give you either 0-255 or 16-235 range ... and it was always a stupid junky way to do that stuff.

If you want to check what is going on you have to play the timeline and output via SDI to a real video monitor. 

 

In essence, what you want maybe in your situation is to rethink what you are trying to achieve with the reference monitor. One monitor ( with source and program on it ) won't have the real estate ( space ) to show all three without overlapping them or losing one ( switch from program to reference ) which is useless.

 

If you want to compare stuff then you're talking about a different circumstance... where you have to basically view a split screen of the program monitor , where one half shows you the uncorrected clip and the other half shows you what you have with your corrections.... so you can compare them... 

 

You can't do that with PPro... on different monitors etc.

 

I would look into resolve for what you want to do, and it's a different animal how to accomplish what you want ( different controls and so on ) on the SAME monitor.. but in that case you need a desktop with large monitors so you can see what's up... The best way to do what you want is to output SDI ( not your graphic card, but a separate card ) to a real video monitor...

 

:

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LEGEND ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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Are you working on a laptop? Does temporarily resizing the Program Monitor help?

I can drag it to take up a substantial portion of my screen:

Screen Shot 2019-10-23 at 12.59.53 PM.png

MtD

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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I'm missing something here.. the question is about coloring maybe ? I see a screenshot that has a big pumpkin on left and a wide shot of pumpkin on right.. and when I click on the image it is really too small to see exactly what the whole screen capture is supposed to show me re: the UI of the program, and the monitors selected ( source and program, source and reference ? I have no clue)

Let's assume the left is the source monitor and the right is the reference monitor AFTER THE program monitor was dragged into a bigger thing...and now I am supposed to see some color diffence ??  I just don't get it.. what is the purpose of this screenshot ?

 

is it about the crop factor or the color or what ??  The pumpkin looks the same to me...

 

duh

 

 

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LEGEND ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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The original poster was using the Reference Monitor feature of Premiere Pro (menu Window > Reference Monitor) to compare shots as he/she was color grading, and having difficulty doing so.

 

My suggestion was to use the recently added feature of Comparison View which turns the Program Monitor into a two-up screen display, where you can choose which frame you want to reference (compare) with the clip you are working with on the timeline.

 

The suggestion was to temporarily resize the Program Monitor so that the two-up display was larger, if it appeared to small to be useable.

MtD

 

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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oh.

so the left big pumpkin in the progam monitor uncorrected and the right ( your sreenshot) is the 'comparison', like what you do in color controls will show up in the wide shot of the pumpkin, as you work on it but it is basically the program monitor in a split view ... ??? but the crop factor is whatever it is re: original source material ( wide shot on right ) and you can change stuff and see stuff on the left ?  I don't get it.

Being on the same monitor ( color corrected or not ) you would actually use something like that ?

 

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LEGEND ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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There is a short video tutorial showing how to use Comparison View in the Color Correction process on this page:

https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/how-to/frame-comparison-view.html 

MtD

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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I can just make a node and do my color or whatever, using more than one node as I go along.. which is database driven ( not rendering new cache files ) and turn the node on or off as I choose to look at the difference between what WAS and WHAT IS ... VERY simple ..turn it on, turn it off, and I see what I have and I can play the whole thing ( not end up on some end frame like reference monitor).

 

I see it in real time playing the timeline... what I did and what is was. Very simple.

 

 

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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OK, I watched your link.. whatever... not very impressive.. didn't someone do that with 'match shot' a while back ... whatever.. what a waste of time.

 

 

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Participant ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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the comparison view does not seem to do what i'm searching for.

I'd like the shot i'm comparing to "the left shot" to be one shot behind where i am in the timeline.

Meaning:

if i'm grading shot #2 i'd like the comparison shot to be shot #1. then if i move the timeline to shot 3, the comparison moves automatically to shot #2. and so on. grade shot #4 compare shot #3 etc.

i can't find a way to make that work. the quickest i've found is using the gang tool in the reference monitor.

wonder where we could request this feature? it is quite helpful for quick long form grading.

 

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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Participant ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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Salvo34, i'm sorry it does not appear you understand what i am asking or why i am asking it. thanks for trying to help.

i do not like resolve, for this purpose i'm grading things in pr. if this does not match your approval i understand and i thank you for trying to help. i'm in search for an answer in pr. thanks again.

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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I understand exactly what you are asking and it can't be done using Premiere.

 

That's why resolve it the program everyone uses for color grading.

 

And it doesn't matter if I APPROVE or not.. it's a fact of life

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LEGEND ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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The Comparison view allows side by side and wipe mode ... side by side you see all of both images, left one is the reference shot, right one the one currently under the CTI and so being corrected.

 

Wipe mode can be either side to side or vertically and each image is full monitor panel. So you can see all of either or any proportion as you move the line across the monitor.

 

You can select any clip reference and of course any frame. Typically it's used by choosing the hero image of a scene and moving down the line correcting other clips to match the hero image.

 

This is the same functionality as Resolve, and very similar to what SpeedGrade had.

 

I've never seen a colorist's app that automatically moved the reference image as you moved the grading image. Nor do I know of anyone teaching such a practice. The idea is to match all shots in a scene to one shot.

 

Neil

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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hence, 'match shot' .. same as stated earlier... but it is linear... the one before and the one after it .. not like what you can do with resolve... and you can't save grades and jump around like in resolve to do that... and has NOTHING to do with the 'reference monitor'

 

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Participant ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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i thought speedgrade used to do it? actually i'm farely confident that sg did. you could set your reference window with a second timeline marker that then followed in the same incriment as your primary.

wether it was 1 second or 10. i believe you could even set one in front as well. giving you a reference of a shot ahead and behind.

i miss speed grade a lot.

so at any rate, i'm guessing there is no way to accomplish what i'm trying to in pr.

great wishlist item!!!! any contacts on who to send that to?!

 

salvo34, i appriciate that you like ressolve and believe that everyone should be on it. i'm not interested and i'm in search of a solution within pr. if i had a question for ressolve or assimilate scratch or any other awesome coloring program i would ask that within those forums. 

thanks again for trying to help. i appriciate it.

 

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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your welcome. this is a user to user forum and people say what they want... whether it fits you or not, is your own thing... other people will read your post and maybe get some info that helps THEM

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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Neil, usually when talking about 1 scene.. it's interior or exterior , and there's a wide master usually, and then coverage ( one side of axis and then the other side of axis..) and for each shot it is re-lit... the lighting is MOVED to accomodate the action and position of camera etc...so it's not always an exact MATCH.. but the match is a good 'starting' point ( if it wasn't shot properly it could be drastic ).

The 'match' is mostly ( in my opinion ) based on skin tones and basic luminance values ... so when matching for that it's to get in the ballpark, and then the grading happens ( a shadow on someone's face needs to be finessed, etc. )..  and if the action requires high speed ( to slow up stuff etc ) then that frame rate ( and shutter speed) will sometimes throw off the overall master a bit...   but you know all that.

 

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Advisor ,
Oct 23, 2019 Oct 23, 2019

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here's a good example.. every single angle of camera is different lighting... yes it's true....and when they get outside you'll notice a big difference in saturation ( bleach bypass )....this is really hard to shoot well and light well, etc...but he's good at it.

 

http://www.stefanczapskyasc.com/quantico---s03e07---bullet-train.html

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LEGEND ,
Oct 24, 2019 Oct 24, 2019

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For the OP's base question, the Comparison view in Premiere works pretty much like the same in Resolve ... and if you've set your second or reference monitor for the Transmit Out, you get the full screen comparison view. Which you can't in Resolve (yet) unless of course you've got a hundred or so bucks in BM gear between your computer and the monitor. (Thankfully, they've announced that will change sometime relatively soon.)

 

But ... there's not, as noted above, any auto-skip of the reference image down the line. I don't know of an app currently doing that (but could easily be wrong!). I'm not sure how much I'd even use such a feature ... I normally want a particular section of a clip for comparison, not just any frame. But we all work differently.

 

To Salvo, having multiple hero shots of a scene is of course sometimes required, as the view from a different angle can be very much different in colors and contrast besides the camera levels being off. Still, one does normally prefer having the one 'master' to refer to for skin tones and such ... whatever is most critical visually in that scene.

 

You're right in Premiere not having the full grading tool-set, such things like the (essentially) banks of grades that Resolve can 'store'. Which is very handy. Premiere's presets aren't nearly the same thing. That ability to have a still showing the grade is so useful. I also liked SpeedGrade's function of being able to get to a clip, and simply key-short application of a grade from 1-5 clips either way onto the current clip. That ... was a wonder at times especially for a first step, a neutralization run down a line. Well ... and once you had thing neutralized, applying a feel for the scene also.

 

Premiere's tools require a completely different thinking process in many ways. Using say multiple bins for different parts of the coloring process ... the way Premiere stores data about changes to a clip are 1) in the sequence and 2) for certain things in a bin. If you're using anything with a Master Clip property ... RED r3d files, Arri/BM raw, Sony Log ... you can use one set of bins for neutralization using the MC properties of the clip. But if you duplicate those clips to a new bin, and apply another layer of MC settings to them, you can do a second pass using the base controls of the media rather than relying on Lumetri to affect the image. With some of that awesome modern media, this is a Very Good Thing.

 

Every app is different. Watching the process in Mistika or Baselight ... it's very different in each.

 

Neil

 

Neil

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Advisor ,
Oct 24, 2019 Oct 24, 2019

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yeah, stuff is kinda fun most of the time to work with, but sometimes gets frustrating too. Is a constant learning thing for me.

Got all that junk I ordered for bmpcc today ( BM batteries, nikon charger ( works great with 4 contacts.. shoulda ordered 2 of them cause the other charger only has 2 contacts). also got that juicebox gizmo ( 12 v output ).

 

put a glass magnifying glass in the bag... cause I can't see NOTHIN when outside with that screen outside 

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LEGEND ,
Oct 24, 2019 Oct 24, 2019

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Oh, yea ... I've enough trouble using the BMPCC4K screen for viewing in the studio ... outside? ... right.

 

So my small monitor is mounted on the cage anytime I shoot outside. I can both set it to a position that is more comfortable to see ... and it's WAY brighter than the camera back!

 

Of course, it needs batteries also ... so I've a bunch of chargers. Sigh.

 

Neil

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Advisor ,
Oct 24, 2019 Oct 24, 2019

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LOL... I got so many batteries I can't even keep up with what's up... I use a label printer to label everything ...( atomos, nikon, BM, etc etc.. )  hehe... pretty funny

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