HDV --> SD DVD Workflow?

[hhansard]

Dont want to sound stupid or naive, but probably going to come across that way

I have shot [underwater] dv for years, and moved to hdv in 06. Since I have an end-to-end blu-ray setup with a broadcast scalier, my hdv footage looks great at home.

I was asked to take some of my hdv footage and burn an sd dvd for distribution. I took an edit of 1440x1080 and exported in PP-CS3 [movie] [Sorenson] as 720x480dv, no recompression highest quality (26G for a 30minute vid), etc, etc.. and imported it into a new PP3 d1 project. Burned the DVD again highest quality

I looked at the results on an sd 4:3 monitor terrible much worse then my old native dv footage. I expected to loose quality, but assumed that the scaling algorithm would smooth, and I would end-up with something acceptable --- but it does not look like it it looks like pixels are just dropped with no interpellation at all. I mean if you never saw the original footage, you might let it pass, but having seen the original footage, you can tell that the compression has killed it. I know that this is like a 2 (maybe 3) generation dupe, but I have access to the original pixels and would have assumed with minimal recompression/expansion the results would be as good as 1gen dv but I cant seem to get there

Can anyone point me to a good workflow [or some settings] to take hdv footage and cut a decent quality sd dvd using the production suite??

Thanks in advance,

Hugh

[mickkeay]

Dan should have read the text file!
LoadPlugin("SmoothDeinterlacer.dll")

sorted out the first problem

[Dan Isaacs]

That's funny... I was just about to suggest it when I saw your update.

Set the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Avisynth\PluginDir2_5 key in your registry to C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins

It's convenient to not have to load each plugin manually all the time. I took it for granted that AviSynth was installed this way on your system. Bad assumption :)

As for the YUY2 <-> RGB error:

1.) Try installing the HuffYUV codec. http://neuron2.net/www.math.berkeley.edu/benrg/huffyuv.html

2.) Get VirtualDub version 1.6.9 from http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=9649&package_id=9727

3.) Check your registry and find the key for VIDC.YUY2 : What dll is it registered to? Try setting it to msyuv.dll

That's a really strange error. You should certainly be able to open uncompressed YUV formats on your editing system!

-- Dan

[mickkeay]

Thanks Dan

OK -
1) and 2) did both 1.6.9 -23604

but 3) No sign of VIDC.YUY2 in the registry?

[Dan Isaacs]

Did you fix your problem Mick?

See the bottom of the AviSynth manual page for info about YUY2 codecs:
http://avisynth.org/oldwiki/index.php?page=Convert

Are you running Vista by any chance?? I'm sure you can get it working regardless, but I have no personal experience with Vista.

[mickkeay]

Hi Dan
No XP. I had to leave it for a while. I think I should be able to get it going now. (fingers crossed) Thanks Dan

[_hconant_]

Hugh/Dan and others: I think I actually started this thread a while ago, but had to go out of town. Had hoped to come back to a simple PP solution. Actually, I don't see a PP solution (Hugh was working on this) or the other (Dan has been instrumental on the avisynth approach), which I haven't seen anyone's report of any results. I started testing Dan's approach but never finished, I guess hoping there would be a bit simpler PP approach. Dan's Avisynth approach, although sounds technically more adept and flexible, is a bit more convoluted (I don't mean that in a bad way) than I would care for if I have a choice.

Hugh: You said you'll post when (if) you had a PP solution. I guess you don't have it yet?

Joey K: Your idea of exporting your project to tape sounds pretty interesting. Looked like Hugh was going to try that, but I don't see a reply to that test either.

I don't mean to sit back while you guys do all the work and then report. I am just trying to get back up to speed having been away a couple of weeks. I'll start working on some tests also.

Everyones input on this subject has been great.

Howell

[_hconant_]

I picked this off the Cineform site.
"Unfortunately the Adobe Media Encoder has some bugs when trying to export an edited HD project to an MPEG-2 DVD format from the Premiere Pro timeline. The result of these bugs lowers video quality upon export."

[Dan Isaacs]

Hi Howell ---

I saw your post about Cineform. I'm posting here so as not to hijack your new thread. I really don't know that much about Cineform.

I did have occasion, however, to chat with Hugh via email and he said some encouraging things about Cineform. I guess he's been busy, too, but I believe he is a planning a compreshensive review of his findings with Cineform and other workflows. I really do look forward to this. I think he's approaching things in a good way.

From what gleaned about Cineform from their website, it seems more an "end-to-end" HD solution than a simple HDV->DV converter. I know that they have some spiffy HD codecs (10 bit 4:4:4 YUV, for example) that benefit you most if your source material is captured and/or converted to their format. I imagine the extra 2 bits / channel do wonders for color correction, curves, gamma adjustments, color space conversions, etc.

That being said, I still suggest you try out the workflow via FrameServer/AviSynth. If you take the time to get it working it becomes very routine -- and I don't imagine it would tell you long at all to figure out. I'm open to helping you to this end. You'll be the wiser for learning AviSynth a bit, too. I also have a much better AviSynth script for doing these conversions than the basic one I posted here. If you've got my basic workflow down I'll email you my latest "hd2sd()" function and some documentation for it.

The use of Cineform or AviSynth is not necessarily exclusive: I'm curious about what can be attained from using Cineform as an intermediary codec or frameserving from a Cineform Premiere workflow. Hey, if Cineform fixes the apparent RGB<->YUV wrong-matrix-silliness that occurs in standard Premiere HDV workflows I'm all for it!

But Cineform may be an overly expensive solution for some (including me). As long as I can circumvent the wretched deinterlacing and combing artifacts associated with a Premiere-only HD->SD process then I am happy enough: 10-bit precision would just be gravy -- and pricey gravy at that.

Please let me know if I can be of any assistance to you in setting up your workflow.

Regards,
-- Dan

[_hconant_]

Dan. Good to hear from you again. I did try another short test earlier today exporting/movie using FrameServer and ended up with the same proplem as before. An .avi file with no apparent video, just black. I can't tell you precisely what settings at the moment as I am rendering something else which will take a while. I must have something pretty blatantly set wrong. Any general thoughts on that? I was also a bit concerned when I read today on the debugmode.com/userforums that the site was apparently hijacked by hackers. It didn't leave me with a real good feeling about downloading their stuff, although I already have the plugin installed and have used it a couple of times. If I can just get the basics going I will definately follow through with some more testing. Thanks for all you generous input.
--Howell

[Dan Isaacs]

You can still try things out by exporting a lossless 1080i .AVI (make it short... the file will be pretty big) from Premiere and using that in the AviSource() line, so that your script starts:

AviSource("lossless_filename.avi")
ConvertToYUY2(matrix="rec709")

[_hconant_]

Dan-I think the Avisynth is just a bit beyond me. I just can't seem to focus on the script system (no GUI), even though you have generously provided the necessary scripting. Not being able to effectively create or modify those scripts on my own, and the learning curve is just too steep for me. So I am focusing on the HD > SD proplem not so much of getting a high qualilty AVI file, as that seems do-able in several methods. My AVI files look great when imported into Encore and viewed on the monitor. It seems to be the exporting out of Encore and transcoding to SD DVD. Encore uses the MainConcept MPEG codec (at least my version does). Maybe it's as simple as that. Correct me if I am wrong. In the Cineform thread I starting it was suggested using Procoder 3 for that final process with excellent result. Unfortunately its a $500 solution even on Amazon. So Cineform at $500/$999, plus $500 for Procoder 3. Expensive fix, but if it really works it's still probably worth it. I am not convinced the Cineform is even essential, because as I said, I THINK I am getting decent quality AVI files just straight out of Premier. And, there does seem to be some duplication between Cineform and Procoder 3, but I have not read enough yet to determine that for sure. Your input is always greatly appreciated.

--Howell

[Dan Isaacs]

That's too bad, Howell. I find AviSynth a great (free) alternative to many commercial Premiere plugins. For straight conversions and batching it can be much easier and faster then PPro or AE.

I've not used Procoder 3, but I did use an earlier version (I used to have Canopus hardware, too... The exact models and revisions escape me right now) and I was not all that impressed. Things may have changed substantially since then, I do not know.

The lack of GUI doesn't bother me in the least. I use VirtualDub to preview what I do and Jext (a Java-based text editor) for the scripting. I also do web programming (Perl, Javascript, Flash, HTML/XML) so I guess I'm pretty used to the whole scripting concept :)

Procoder and/or Cineform may be well worth it for some. Heck, if I did more HD editing it might even be worth it to me.

You're very welcome. If you need anything else don't hesitate to ask.

-- Dan

[mickkeay]

I am still working on Dan's workflow but am having trouble with QuEnc - which errors as soon as I start frameserving to it. I too am a tad uncomfortable with script stuff but would get on the avisynth learning curve if I could get it rolling. I have some time tomorrow so intend to have another go. Been pondering buying CCE too

I have procoder (it has an adaptive deinterlacing filter) and tried the export using procoder option. I get an 'error compiling movie' every time as soon as the export starts. I have exported using AME to MPEG2 1440 X 1080 and then used Procoder on the resulting mpg to deinterlace and produce DVD compliant files - but I cant say the result seemed that much better than Adobe end to end.

What is the problem with importing an HDV project into a new SD project and manually scaling. I would have thought that that would get round the bugs with AME exporting the HDV timeline to SD???? It certainly seems to be the best DVD output I have had to date (although reversing field dominance made it much worse for me and I didnt try the flicker removal yet)

I am also going to experiment frameserving into procoder

...or maybe Adobe will fix in next patch! Was this a problem in PP2?

cheers Mike

[Curt Wrigley]

It was a problem in PP2. PPRO CS3 however works fine for me natively. Done hundreds of DVDs to customers using PPRO only to down convert HDV to SD video. CS3 made major improvements in this area.

[_hconant_]

Mike-See the following topic which addresses, at least the Procoder part of your message.
Premiere Pro CS3 General Discussion --
"Cineform Aspect/Prospect HD"
Therein, in post #7, Robert Young spells out details on Cineform/Procoder 3 with what he says is great results. I'd be very interested if you've tried this combination.

[mickkeay]

Hi cwrig. What is your workflow? No cineform and you go out from a HDV timeline using Media encoder into encore for SD DVD? Tkx

[_hconant_]

cwrig: Can you share your work flow that seems to be so successful for you? If you read this thread from the beginning, you will see no one else seems to be able to get anything acceptable out of an all PP project.
Thanks

[Curt Wrigley]

Just read the thread

[Dan Isaacs]

Hi Mick --

It's unfortunate that you've had these crashes in QuEnc. It works great for me (and I've done nothing special set-up wise that I know of).

If you'd like, email me @ d.isaacs --at-- comcast --dot-- net : I'd be glad to help you troubleshoot, but I don't want to clog up this thread in doing so.

CCE is good also. Remember that CCE only accepts YUY2 input so comment-out or remove the ConvertToYV12(...) line at the end of your .avs script. I think this is true for Procoder, too.

Also: these suggested PPro-only or PPro->Encore workflows will yield only the same results that spawned this thread in the first place. While that may be "good enough" for some (and if your source is 720p or 1080p it may well be pretty good), I suspect you're in here because you're already unsatisfied.

-- Dan

[_Robert_P_Young_]

The question: Is there a PPro only (PPro/Encore) workflow that will result in DVD images that don't look soft on a Big Screen HDTV?
The answer: No
Whether from HDV or DV sources, my experience with PPro/Encore workflows is that the resulting DVD looks just fine on a 24" CRT TV, because the display is 480i and the DVD is 480i.
When those same pixels are spread out on a 720p, or 1080p 50" HDTV, they will get very thinned out and the image will look soft.
I there anything that can be done to produce better DVD images that doesn't require a PhD and $200,000?
The few lessons I've learned producing video content to be distributed on DVD is that the final DVD image quality, no matter if you start with HDV or DV, is not due so much to "the one big thing that really, really works great". It is the summation of many small things throughout the production chain- starting with acquisition and ending with the type of TV (480i CRT, 1080p HDTV, etc.) the viewer is using, and now, even the type of DVD player.
1) Acquisition: a good 3 chip camera with a quality lens, good lighting that allows f6-f8 exposure, and staying on sharp focus is important. Always- garbage in, garbage out.
2) For HDV, editing in a robust, lightly compressed intermediate codec (like Cineform CFHD 1080i.avi) will help prevent generational image degrades as you add filters, color correction, effects, titling, renders, re-renders, etc.
3) Determine the best transition file format for getting from the HD on your Premiere timeline to m2v DVD format. The best I have found to date is to export my CFHD 1080i edited timeline to Cineform CFDV 480p (Cineform performs the deinterlace during export), or Cineform CFDV 480i (Cineform will reverse the field order to "lower first" during the export) if you need to distribute an interlaced DVD .
4) Transcoding from .avi to .m2v. Generally best results with 2 pass VBR 6 (8max)mbs. Transcoding software is not generic. Some are much better than others. The really good ones are not free. I have used Procoder for years, but there are a few other excellent ones. It is generally rated as one of the best and has an comprehensive bank of filters for fine tuning and tweaking the final DVD image. I always use Gamma Adjustment, Color Correction, and Sharpen filters. This is not the same as applying similar filters to the clips in your timeline. The Procoder image adjustments are made directly to your m2v file as it's being transcoded.
5) Author and burn the DVD- not much is special about this part.
6) Viewing Devices and DVD Players: The current problem is that most people are now viewing on 40"-60" 720pix, or even 1080pix HDTV. Those pixels from your DVD are getting spread pretty thin and the image looks very soft. I have found that an interlaced workflow produces a softer image on these displays than progressive. A progressive workflow (I make the conversion when I export the CFHD 1080i PPro timeline to CFDV 480p movie.avi)looks significantly better- in fact, using this particular workflow (including the Procoder image adjustments), it looks quite good. To the average viewer, it looks like any standard def signal they are used to seeing on their HDTV. I am also satisfied that it looks better than my DV originated programs.
Something New: The Sony "upscaling" HDMI DVD player ($80 at Costco) will make the DVD images look actually terrific- on a par with just about anybody's programming. It attempts to upscale a 480pix DVD image to match the 720 or 1080pix display with amazing success. This may be the future for those of us who use software encoding.
That's about everything I know about this topic for now.

[Dan Isaacs]

Hey all ---

I have a nifty idea: I found this clip on the dvinfo.net site:

http://gibopictures.com/video/NY_MAD_WORLD.mpg

It is a (very nice) finished sequence in a muxed MPEG2 1080/60i stream. How about we use this clip as a "reference" for comparing workflows?

1.) Create a new HDV 1080i/60 project
2.) Drop the clip on the Premiere timeline (and pretend that it's a "real sequence" instead of a rendered clip)
3.) Output it to SD MPEG2 for DVD

(One note: The first few frames were red and garbled when I opened the MPEG file in Premiere. I fixed this by demuxing the audio and video in DGIndex and reimporting)

I've sent the creator (Mikon Haaksman) an email asking for permission to post conversions of his clip for testing/comparison purposes. I, of course, will let you all know if I've heard back from him.

It's an idea... Most of my HDV footage is industrial suff, which is not that exciting and probably not representative of what most people are doing. Or maybe someone has their own sequence or footage they'd like to volunteer for this process instead.

This might provide a way for us to really compare workflows, their results vs. expense, etc.

[Jim_Simon]

>The question: Is there a PPro only (PPro/Encore) workflow that will result in DVD images that don't look soft on a Big Screen HDTV?
The answer: No

The question: Why would you start with HD material, squeeze it down for DVD and then play THAT on a big screen HDTV?

The answer: No good reason.

Look, working with HD ain't cheap. Between the camera, the NLE system and the big screen TV, you're talking about several thousand dollars. There's just no excuse for not having a Blu-ray to properly watch that media.

My two cents.

[_hconant_]

Jim-Consider this. My 15 year old daughter does a school project. Amatuer videographer for high school basketball travel team. It wins some school awards, and now all the kids want copies. Some have Bluray, some HD, and some SD. It's really cool to be able to provide high definition output DVD's for those who have the equipment to take advantage of it. The end product is very impressive. For those who don't, well, output to SD. That's one excuse.

[Guest]

Heh! Having read through this whole discussion I now realise why I didn't get a quick response when I raised a broadly similar HD > SD question in http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b4a32f/0

In my case I'm satisfied with simply using Nero to do the conversion - maybe I am simply easily satisfied, but the result seems a whole lot better than PPro 2.0 can muster.

Another even more simple route I am about to explore is playing an AVCHD DVD on a Playstation 3 with an SVHS output lead and recording that into a DVD recorder which has an SVHS input socket. Crude, but I suspect it will actually give a good result. Hardware rules! The PS3 is held by some to be as good a Blu Ray player as you can get.

[_hconant_]

I've keep leaning towards Premier's > Encore video transcription codec being used to author the DVD as the culprit. There have been several good solutions in this thread as to how to get a high quality AVI file, and I think we can all do that whether it be all PP or Cineform, Avisynth or whatever. Its the next step, outputting the PP project to DVD that is the problem. In my work flow tests, the MainConcept codec used by Adobe in the dvd trsanscoding appears (in my opinion) to be the weakest link. Ozpeter, I believe, is the first one to suggest Nero for the disc authoring. There have been a couple who have suggested good results with Procoder 3, which is a $500 possible solution. Does anyone know how to determine what version MainConcept codec is used in Premier for transcoding to DVD? MainConcept can't seem to tell me anything other than to purchase their MPEG Pro HD3 at a mere $449.