HDV --> SD DVD Workflow?

[hhansard]

Dont want to sound stupid or naive, but probably going to come across that way

I have shot [underwater] dv for years, and moved to hdv in 06. Since I have an end-to-end blu-ray setup with a broadcast scalier, my hdv footage looks great at home.

I was asked to take some of my hdv footage and burn an sd dvd for distribution. I took an edit of 1440x1080 and exported in PP-CS3 [movie] [Sorenson] as 720x480dv, no recompression highest quality (26G for a 30minute vid), etc, etc.. and imported it into a new PP3 d1 project. Burned the DVD again highest quality

I looked at the results on an sd 4:3 monitor terrible much worse then my old native dv footage. I expected to loose quality, but assumed that the scaling algorithm would smooth, and I would end-up with something acceptable --- but it does not look like it it looks like pixels are just dropped with no interpellation at all. I mean if you never saw the original footage, you might let it pass, but having seen the original footage, you can tell that the compression has killed it. I know that this is like a 2 (maybe 3) generation dupe, but I have access to the original pixels and would have assumed with minimal recompression/expansion the results would be as good as 1gen dv but I cant seem to get there

Can anyone point me to a good workflow [or some settings] to take hdv footage and cut a decent quality sd dvd using the production suite??

Thanks in advance,

Hugh

[Curt Wrigley]

> Assuming that PP is at the very least pro-sumer, is it safe to say that if you were to be using a Sony EX-1, XDCAM, or other proformat high def format equipment

The EX-1 XDCAM has the same temporal compression problem HDV does.

Curt

[_tlc51369_]

>Encore is like windows vista (In my opinion) so much overhead it's pointless and aggrevating! and 9/10 times, you spend more time fighting it, then you do using it. Go simple.

So not true. Encore was the easiest program I have ever used. I was authering and burning DVD's in minutes. No exaggerating!

[_hconant_]

Here's the objective. Video your project in high definition (non-specific format for this example) so you have the high def tape/file or whatever. Capture or otherwise import as high definition into your favorite editing suite, assume PP, edit it into its final project form, render it to your hard drive, where you can then export it whenever you wish in whatever format you want depending on who is getting it. Possible? (or should I say practical?)

[hhansard]

Update Summary:

First of all: I have received several good suggestions from forum members

Thank you

Ill try them all and post what I will hope is a solution

****
Start rant:

In the past 16hrs, there have been three posts questioning the quality of the capture equipment or source material

Basically, Garbage in.. garbage out Or more basically, Its not Adobes fault if your footage sucks

However, in the past two weeks, I have been told by broadcast pros that anyone using an all-Adobe workflow is just kidding themselves

Let me clarify the source materials, some of steps taken, and how this thread got started:

After shooting what I though was good HDV, then spending about $30K on a prosumer post-prod NLE system (including CS3) and then reviewing the terrible Adobe-based workflow renders, I began to question myself I used to get better results with my $500 handycam

What did I do wrong??

So three weeks ago, I did an experimentAnd the result was this thread

I took the raw source tape and reviewed it on a broadcast source to broadcast monitor the source material is broadcast quality... Full Stop. Then cut a Blu-ray DVD not bad, especially played on a broadcast monitor Then cut an SD DVD. Houston, we have a problem

My friends in broadcast said, Not so its your expectations that are wrong You need another zero in your equipment budget and a post-pro shop for output or just simply shoot in SD and be happy

Basically, Hey kid, you are in the wrong ballpark

This was a real shock for me and the reason that I started this thread in the first place I had just spent $25K on the front-end and $30K on a prod setup and now I find-out that I cant get results as good as a $500 handycam What the???

What part of Adobes marketing literature or documentation did I miss? Isnt the Master Suite supposed to be, click-and-go .. arent there specific project profiles for HDV? At what point do they tell you that you just flushed $30K down the crapper?

I have called Adobe 3 times in the past month and could not get a decent answer. I know Adobe monitors this forum, but they have been silent on this topic. Either they know there is a problem and are working on a solution, or they dont In either case, they sould just say so....

End rant
****

Now to summarize:

There have been some very solid suggestions in this thread, and I plan to try them and post results:

1) let the source cam/vtr hardware convert the vid from HDV to SD just forget the extra bits, you will never use them anyway

2) use Adobe to edit, then use a workflow involving 3rd party tools outside of Adobe to scale, render, transcode etc

3) Get a trial license for Ciniform...

I plan to try all of these. When done, Ill post what I hope will be a solid workflow

Again, What is Acceptable Quality?

Hugh

[hhansard]

Update Summary:

First of all: I have received several good suggestions from forum members

Thank you

Ill try them all and post what I will hope is a solution

****
Start rant:

In the past 16hrs, there have been three posts questioning the quality of the capture equipment or source material

Basically, Garbage in.. garbage out Or more basically, Its not Adobes fault if your footage sucks

However, in the past two weeks, I have been told by broadcast pros that anyone using an all-Adobe workflow is just kidding themselves

Let me clarify the source materials, some of steps taken, and how this thread got started:

After shooting what I though was good HDV, then spending about $30K on a prosumer post-prod NLE system (including CS3) and then reviewing the terrible Adobe-based workflow renders, I began to question myself I used to get better results with my $500 handycam

What did I do wrong??

So three weeks ago, I did an experimentAnd the result was this thread

I took the raw source tape and reviewed it on a broadcast source to broadcast monitor the source material is broadcast quality... Full Stop. Then cut a Blu-ray DVD not bad, especially played on a broadcast monitor Then cut an SD DVD. Houston, we have a problem

My friends in broadcast said, Not so its your expectations that are wrong You need another zero in your equipment budget and a post-pro shop for output and... and... or just simply shoot in SD and be happy

Basically, Hey kid, you are in the wrong ballpark

This was a real shock for me and the reason that I started this thread in the first place I had just spent $25K on the front-end and $30K on a prod setup and now I find-out that I cant get results as good as a $500 handycam What the???

What part of Adobes marketing literature or documentation did I miss? Isnt the Master Suite supposed to be, click-and-go .. arent there specific project profiles for HDV? At what point do they tell you that you just flushed $30K down the crapper?

I have called Adobe 3 times in the past month and could not get a decent answer. I know Adobe monitors this forum, but they have been silent on this topic. Either they know there is a problem and are working on a solution, or they dont In either case, they sould just say so....

End rant
****

Now to summarize:

There have been some very solid suggestions in this thread, and I plan to try them and post results:

1) let the source cam/vtr hardware convert the vid from HDV to SD just forget the extra bits, you will never use them anyway

2) use Adobe to edit, then use a workflow involving 3rd party tools outside of Adobe to scale, render, transcode etc

3) Get a trial license for Ciniform...

I plan to try all of these. When done, Ill post what I hope will be a solid workflow

Again, What is Acceptable Quality?

Hugh

[Curt Wrigley]

Can you give more detail on the workflow you are using? I had your problem in CS2, but not in CS3. Dowwconversion was sigificantly improved in CS3.

Or; to elliminate some variables, just do this.

Create a new NTSC DV project ; all default settings (NTSC I Assume)

Import your HDV clips. Scale them down so they fit into the 16 x 9 sd frame. Burn that to dvd and test the quality. It should be more than acceptable; at least as good as original SD source assuming your hdv source is good quality. Note; in preferences, dont set "Adjust to frame size". If they come in at 100% and are the right size, you have this checked, which is not prefeable for this. Let the clips come in at full size and scale them down manually.

* How are you shooting hdv? 60i, 24p, 30p? If you are mixinf frame rates and interlac settings, it could cause your symptoms.

* Please dont use 3 threads for this rant. Much less likely to get a response when you do that.

Curt

[Curt Wrigley]

Please stop double posting. Double posting is a sure fire way to get ignored; or just to anger the entire forum.

Curt

[_hconant_]

I have found Hugh's posts all valuable info, to me anyway.
I am still in the same boat as Hugh. I tried the HD > DV conversion in the camera at capture. No improvement. I tried the 3rd party tools; couldn't get them to even work. Probably could with time, but that is part of the problem; being time effective. The best solution I've seen, and find it real close to acceptable is from NDOR0083 post #13. Did you try that Hugh? Don't you agree its much better? I have now spent considerable time on Avid's forum, and Creative Cow forum and read and discussed this topic specifically regarding Final Cut Pro, and Avid Express and even Media Composer (big bucks). Guess what. The exact same subject is battered around regardless of which of the three NLE systems I just mentioned. In the FCP threads it sounded exactly like this thread but in a different forum with different names. The same solutions, more or less, were being suggested and the same outcome. And those solutions sounded just as convoluted as the ones suggested here for PP. So, I've come to the conclusion that it is probably the compressed MPEG2 material that you are getting from the camera and dropping into the time line, and/or the compressed SD material you are getting out of the camera which has been converted in the camera for output to SD. Apparently no one seems to have an algorithm (if that is the correct technical term for it) to convert HD MPEG2 files in SD MPEG2 files and maintain high enough quality. And, no one seems to have a one button setting to get out a SD DVD from HD mpeg2 -> SD DVD (of good quality). I had my PP boxed up for return (I'm still within my 30 days), but am going to hold off a little longer. I do like editing and composing with it. And personally, with the little experience I've seen, I think the differences between PP, FCP and Avid are more the user interface and work flow styles, more than quality of the output which I put them all equal. It boils down to what you are used to in that regard. MAC vs PC, in my opinion makes very little difference within these platforms.

What I am going to look at now; is there a camera with a recording format that can do what we are looking to do? And if so, can it be done in PP. Native editing keeps coming up, but I am not even sure what that is. XDCAM, the sony higher end, and some other higher end cameras from Canon and Panasonic. If I could solve this problem with a $3,500 camera, as compared to a $1,200 HD handycam, I would. But I am still not convinced that will do it.

Hope I didn't double post anything, since I don't even know what that is. Maybe it's being a little repetitive here and there? Chill.

[_hconant_]

CWRIG: I had tried to keep the scaling problem segregated in my post "Sony HDminDV 16:9 to 4:3 SD DVD. As compared to the degredation problem of Hugh's post. I had pretty much dropped the scaling problem to focus on Hugh's original post regarding getting the HD -> SD thing worked out. I even got a bit lost myself as to which post was being using. Sorry about that. I've been trying to stay with this one post but the scaling seems to be a different issue.

[Jim_Simon]

>then spending about $30K on a prosumer post-prod NLE system (including CS3)

Just out of curiosity, the whole CS3 suite might run about $2K, a very good computer another 4 or 5. What did you spend the rest of it on? And if you're spending that much money, why on earth go with HDV instead of a more professional format.

[Jim_Simon]

>I have found Hugh's posts all valuable info, to me anyway.

There's nothing wrong with that, but he should post them only once, not in every thread he feels is relevant.

[hhansard]

Curt: you are quite correct. The forum moderator should merge the threads. However, if you look closely, there are only 2 threads and not 3. You should also note that the second thread was not started by me it was by another member with exactly the same situation and wanted follow-up info Folks then started to monitor each thread individually and good info was posted separately in each thread. I started to get e-mails from both threads individually --- thus, I started to double post my mistake It was my mistake, I admit it freely I should have contacted a forum moderator and asked that the threads be merged. You are also very correct, I will loose momentum with multiple posts I apologize I will pick the thread that I started, and continue there. In the other thread, I will post a cross reference and ask that all future discussion happen linearly

At this point the threads should be merged so the discussion can be held linearly I will e-mail Adobe to see if they can merge the threads

Curt: After reading your post, I am not sure what you are asking me to do. The experiment that you propose is exactly what I did and posted results 2 weeks ago I did create a new D1 project, imported the HDV source and let PP CS3 scale it down The results were much worse then standard SD footage that I have on archive. To test my workflow, I imported some SD archived material into the same project. Then I watched the entire thing on broadcast equipment The difference are as clear as day. There have been numerous posts by other forum members and from broadcast pros that this is a dead-end workflow and to stop wasting my time. So I went looking for answers and starting this thread

As for forum members, I apologize for the double posting and thanks for you input. I will spend the weekend trying the workflows suggested. I will hopefully have some answers as to which is the best path by Monday or Tuesday I have also been e-mailed with a new proposal: use Digital Anarchys De-interlacer and Scaler programs in AE, then import the result to PP Ive just purchased the tools and will give it a whirl

There have now been 4th posts suggesting that the problem is my source material. For clarity and to stop this line of discussion, I will repeat my post from several weeks ago:

I ran the raw tapes on a Sony BVM-L230 from an HVR-M35U. There source is clean, full stop. The tapes were then imported from the same vtr directly to a fiber channel array. The timeline looks solid, but not as clean as the original, but that is to be expected I know PP is supposed to work with native pixels {I believe that PS and AE do), but at this point in my experimentation, I very much doubt PP does There must be a 2nd gen in here somewhere It would explain much Its on the output side that the real problems arise lots of interlace artifacts, color compression , etc

The raw material was directly imported into PP/CS3 [latest patches applied] The material was scaled by PP. The footage was output using highest settings, the results were not acceptable, full stop not even as good as my 5-year-old handycam .. I will capture some screen shots of the menu settings and post. Basically, CBR, 8 Mb, highest quality, etc, etc.. I have been doing this for a couple of years and always got good results in the SD world

I am shooting HDV in 60i. If I could shoot 24p, I would jump at it.

Carl: In prior posts, I have explained that I have tried [almost] every combination of settings from most of the codecs with similar results; just some are less noticeable

There have been far more posts from members that an HDV to SD DVD PP/Encore workflow does not exist then those who say that one does. Just read the threads

The posts from members indicating that they are getting good results from an all-Adobe workflow are encouraging however, none have a detailed account of codec, frame options, field options, render settings, GOP, M/I values, transcoding settings, interlace, filters or much else..

If someone in the community that is getting good results will take the time to post the settings, and we all try them, any they workthen this thread will be closed. And you will have saved the entire PP/Encore community countless amounts of time and money


Thanks,

Hugh

PS: Jim, just saw you post. Quickly: Blu-ray, broadcast monitor, broadcast vtr, fiber channel, dual quad core, 8G RAM, Color Finesse, Steady Move, anything from Digital Anarchy, anything from Pixel Genius, etc. etc.. it all adds-up quickly...

[hhansard]

PP/Encore Community:

I made a mistake and wish to apologize. I started a thread several weeks ago, and it lost steam. A fellow forum member had similar questions and started a new thread to see what had been learned --- and referenced my previous thread At that point, I made a fundamental error I kept the second thread going and did not go back to the original The threads diverged... I should have asked that they be merged, but did not think of it at the time I started to post in parallel to keep both threads focused on the issue. Now there are posts arguing about the posts. arguing about the posts. and not discussing the point of the original thread This is my fault and will take the blame..

From this point, please refer to the prior thread for this issue.

I will e-mail Adobe to try to merge the threads...

Thanks,

Hugh

[_hconant_]

HDV --> SD DVD Workflow?
Hugh Hansard - 02:42pm Feb 8, 2008 Pacific

The above referenced post addressed the exact same problem that i have, but I never saw a solution. Shooting HD on Sony HDminiDV tape. Capture to PPCS3, and export to Encore trying various settings to SD-DVD. End result is always very poor quality. Notably worse than old SD tape to DVD. Help.

[Curt Wrigley]

The 3rd duplicate post is in the PC specific forum.

In your original post you mentioned your workflow was to export to a movie and I suppose re-import that into PPRO? That is not what I am suggesting. What your actual workflow is now, I am unable to devine from all the posts iin the three threads. It would be nice if you detailed it specifically as requested. Specific information will yield more specific answers.

You didnt answer the questions about specific source hdv frame rate and interlacing.

You didnt say if you were letting ppro scale to default frame size.

I get very good results using the method I described. The only way to proove it would be to send you a DVD as any compressed represntation would not suffice. I can only say that in CS2 the scaling was very soft. In CS3 it is much better. HDV downscaled to SD and burned to DVD loks as good or better than SD; for me.

Curt Wrigley

[hhansard]

Jim:,

You are correct, it is a lot for HDV. It was a compromise But there is an answer, maybe not a good answer, but an answer still: underwater caves... I shoot underwater exclusively My SD equipment was getting on caves are not a forgiving environment I needed to replace my housing, lighting, camera, etc. Even an entry-level underwater HDV package is $20K, anything beyond that has another 0

When shooting in underwater caves, the size and weight of the package is everything

There are about 3 folks in the world who shoot 24p in that environment, but they are all pros and have the significant resources, underwater support staff, dedicated prost-prod facilities and a budget that is typically expressed in millions The package alone costs about $450K The lighting is off the scale

Airport travel: weight is everything. Just my still/HDV setup is over 150lbs. I typically have to travel with 400lbs of kit. A larger format is on another scale You cant rent this stuff on the far end no one is going to let you take their $175K camera into an underwater cave and you simply can get this stuff into the jungle --- unless you are a pro which I am not A friend of mine just shipped her kit out for a cave shoot --- a total of 3,000lbs

HDV was the best compromise available at the time. It was a conscious decision to over-invest in a post prod setup. The new generations are getting small and smaller, it wont be another 6 months before I can get a small package in a better format that weighs less then 100lbs. I will then e-bay my current package and still have an NLE platform to work with at least that was the thinking at the time

Good question; Thanks,

Hugh

[Mortimer_IOU]

There is a lot of duplication between these two threads, but also useful material. Normally I would just block or delete the duplicate posts or threads, but in this case is would take more time than I want to spend to pick out the unique posts in one and merge them with the other.

In stead I will just try to merge the entire other thread with this one,as this one was started first.

Not sure if everything will track properly, probably not.

[Mortimer_IOU]

There was a lot of duplication between the two threads, but also useful material. Normally I would just block or delete the duplicate posts or threads, but in this case it would take more time than I want to spend to pick out the unique posts in one and merge them with the other.

Instead I will just merge the entire other thread with this one, as this one was started first.

This inevitably leads to some duplicate posts. If that bothers anyone unbearably, list the numbers of the unwanted duplicates and I will remove them. Or better yet, just look forward instead of backwards.

[Jim_Simon]

>A larger format is on another scale You cant rent this stuff on the far end no one is going to let you take their $175K camera into an underwater cave

I was actually thinking of DVCPro HD via the HVX200, which seems to edit better than HDV. But knowing about the underwater, and not being able to swap out P2 cards, it makes sense now.

So I get that the extra gear for underwater costs a lot, but you said the $30K was for post equipment. Seems like that extra gear you mentioned would normally be considered production gear.

So, is that $30k the total you spent, or what you spent on post facilities. 'Cause if that's just on post, I'm still curious what equipment you bought with that much scratch.

[hhansard]

Curt,

You may very well be correct on a 3rd thread. After your e-mail, I did look and found a thread along similar lines in the Windows forum. I may have contributed to it, but I have searched that thread and not found any posts with my name. I did a further search in the entire Windows forum for any posts with my name on them --- I found a hit to a thread unrelated to HDV to SD conversion I then did an entire Adobe search and found threads on color support, external monitor support, and several other topics unrelated to this issue

That being said, it is extremely possible and if I saw a thread there, I would have posted I dont remember starting a thread on this topic in the Windows-only forum, if I did, then it is my mistake. I believe that this is not a PC/Mac issue, which is why I am in the General area. I have posted in the Windows forum other issues that I believe are restricted to that platform. If I have made a mistake in my representation, then I apologize.

I believe that I reported on several workflow experiments in an attempt to solve the issue. This is probably the source of the confusion on which workflow I am actually using. I believe that in a previous post, I stated equipment, frame rate, etc, but maybe not

To summarize: HDV: 1440x1080i60 x 1.33

This is very general and I can provide more detail on any of the workflows:

1. HDV 1080i30(60i) project, import HDV source assets, let PP / Encore automatically scale output and burn

2. Same as above, but manually scale and export as uncompressed movie, import to Encore let Encore do its thing.

3. Same as above, but let Encore scale

4. SD (standard) project, import HDV assets and let PP scale to frame

5. SD (standard) project, Import HDV and scale manually

6 Same as 4, but SD wide screen (best results so far)

7. Same as 5, but SD wide screen - results promising.

Now for the experiment: I took a 20 second clip of HDV footage and went through each workflow. I copied each clip 10 times and applied all combinations of frame, field and interlacing options for each clip in PP in a separate project defined by the workflow above 10 combos per movie, 7 movies. This is 70 clips over 7 projects. I then exported each movie with two different codecs, never using recompression, not optimizing stills and using max bit depth.. --- thats 14 movies. I then output in both 4:3 and Widescreen for each movie lower-frame-first, NTSC. Then created all the DVDs about 30, because all the settings dont all make sense when combined. so I did not end-up with 48.. All Highest Quality, CBR, 8MB, etc. Basically, the highest quality settings that Encore supports As a subsequent post, I will go through the menus and print-out the actual settings used.

I watched each one on broadcast equipment. Get artifacts and color compression. Now I know there are differences in color space between 601, HDV and HD -- I never remember what they are or which are the same, but assume that any minor color shift is normal and to be expected Its the scan-line artifacts and loss of definition that really get me.

In the original tapes, on the raw tape, I get very fine line definition and can read the digits of the on the dive computer that the model has in the conversion, you see a computer, and see that it has a screen, but you cant see that it has digits. The different DVDs have slightly different results. Now I take SD footage from 5 years ago and create a standard SD DVD and I can see digits, but not read them This is a bit picky, and I do expect some detail loss when you compress I excuse this like the minor color shift.

The real issue for me is the interlace artifacts in the HDV scales-own. I dont have an answer, and they appear to a varying degree in the different workflows. I cant explain them and I can make them go away

Perhaps folks are right; the only way is to just mail each other raw footage, DVDs and settings. At this point, I am hoping that someone who has this working will post screen shots of menus and I can just make these problems vanish. I may have a lot of free time on my hands, but I would rather be creating, not troubleshooting.

Some folks are reporting good results; some tell me that there is no way to get there with the tools in my arsenal..

As for me, I will spend this weekend experimenting with the suggestions that I have received with thanks If get good results, Ill post them and the instructions to get there.

Hugh

[Curt Wrigley]

How do you know the SD clip from 5 years ago wasnt exposed better, or have more contrast?

I just took my Canon XH A1 which can shoot both SD 16:9 and HDV. I shot the same scene in both modes. Put the footage in split screen, burned to dvd showed it to my wife and she said the HD side (which wasnt labeled) was slightly better than the SD side.

My workflow if you would like to test it:

1. Shoot in 60i

2. Create new PPRo project with HDV 1080 60i preset; dont change anything
I
3.mport HDV clip

4. Create PPRO SD 16:9 project (dont change anything.

5. Make sure the general preferences are set to NOT scale to frame size

6. Import the HDV clip and drop it on the timeline.

7. Change the scale setting in Motion to 45%

8. File/Export Movie (default settings of MS DV AVI)

9. Launch Encore/Import the exported clip as a timeline. Burn with default settings.

You could export to Encore from PPRO in step 8; or frame serve, but I use the workflow i detailed out of habit. There is negligible loss exporting to DV AVI one time.

Curt

[hhansard]

Curt,

Thanks for the settings This posting exchange has been rather adversarial in the past few days, but I do thank you for the information. And wish to move on to solve problems and get folks the information that they need I will try your workflow right now

I think this exchange is interesting --- and perhapps productive...

Your workflow is very similar to the one that I got my most promising results My #7 (previous post)..

Now, my manual scale (#7) was something like 43%, but I will try your 45%. The composition does not fit exactly, are you using proportional scale or are you scaling height and width individually....

Now: what did you do with field/frame settings in PP. HDV is upper, SD is lowerhow did you make the swap?

It is the fields and interlacing that are giving me my worst problems I have been told that you can not scale interlaced footage. Did you apply a filter or some other setting?

Hugh

[hhansard]

Oooops,

My mistake, your workflow is closest to my #2 experiment... I will re-run the tests with #2 and your settings and see what I get. If you could help with the frame and field settings, it could save me time...

Thanks, Hugh

[Curt Wrigley]

On my system 45% with aspect ratio locked fit just right. I dont think 43 vs 45 should matter, but you should not have to adjust h and w independently. 16:9 is 16:9

I used the default field settings as mentioned in my workflow. I didnt mess with anything. Capture the hdv clip into a default hdv preset. Import the resulting clip into a SD 16:9 default preset. Make sure "Scale to frame size" is OFF BEFORE you import the clip. Alternatly, you can turn it off on a clip by clip basis but thats a pain.

Curt

[hhansard]

I have steps 1 - 3 done.

It's step 4 that I don't understand. I have a timeline in an HDV project, but what do I do with step 4?

Do I output the results from 1-3 and import them into 4? If so, using what settings?

I maybe have it, are steps 1-3 the capture?

and 4-9 the actual edit-export project?

Hugh