high speed scrubbing (cs6)

[Keith_Clark]

where did the scrubbing dial go? is it gone? or hidden? i miss it =( i also don't like the fact the zoom in feature has changed. but not as annoying as the scrubbing. so is scrubbing axed? (i realize you can do it with the playhead, but i liked the dial better.)

[DavidNJ]

There are many different input devices...I use a 3D mouse for CAD. I've had the Watcom on my radar for a while but haven't decided which is the right one. I thought it would speed photo editing.

Physicians say a good physician knows 50 drugs. There are many more than 50, but 50 is apparently sufficient to be good in your specialty.

There are so many different tools, each with a myriad of features, know one knows are uses them all. Adobe dropped Audition a while back for SoundBooth...clearly audio editing wasn't an issue for them. I used Audition when it was still Cool Edit Pro. CS6 seems to have fixed some of the features lost when they changed the code base in CS5 for Mac compatibility.

This is a case where a clear flaw in Adobe's feature use and product planning came out. There is a significant subset, possibly a majority, of users who didn't use the jog and shuttle. But there is a significant number who did. Some in ways that weren't envisioned, such as Bob's use of the Watcom tablet.

It needs to be put back way before CS7. Like next month.

[shooternz]

Storm in a teacup!

Why not spend a little more than a week to see if you can change your fixed paradigm and see if the new version actually does the job ...and that you can adapt.

(Maybe move forward, adapt or get lost in the rush by those that can)

My bet is that from research...Adobe were told that a minority uses the functions ( a hang over from tape machines) and they scrapped it to stay progressive.

You can be assured that we users are lucky that Adobe does listen.  Hang around a litte and you will see this also. 

I hope they never listen to the tyranny of the vocal minority though. ( i dont do feature requests anymore and trust them to listen to the pros concerns)

BTW - Adobe still produce Audition. ( forget about Sound Booth..it was a real fail)

[DavidNJ]

Shooternz

You obviously dont' respect people who disagrees with you. If they deleted the features used by a "minority" these products would have very few features.

Your mypotic view of hitting keys on a keyboard is, well, myoptic. You might realize that we still edit video sequentially, just like a tape machine. You are just using forward and back buttons. And you might also realize even film was composed of discrete frames.

"Pros"??? Define a pro. A dedicated editor for feature films or broadcast TV? An event videographer who spends time selling his services, shooting, and editing? A documentary or low budget film maker who does their own editing? Someone in a marketing or communications department who does it as one of 20 other tasks, editing maybe 10 hours/month or less? Etc., etc., etc.

Premier Pro targets many markets. Someone who sits at screens and edits 90% of the time may (or may not) move between all the nuances with alacrity. Most people won't. One example is the tools window, hardly necessary if you know the key codes. Unless you are using the controls with your mouse and don't even have your hands on the keyboard!

This was an important feature to a large number of users who were missed in Adobe's product research. It needs to be brought back and with the optional key controls in the Source and Program windows it can be brought back easily in a bug fix update. The code already exists.

On the feature side rolling shutter is new, warp stabilizer was in CS5.5 After Effects. Audition now sprouted a Plural Eyes like audio track sync but for some reason they didn't put it in Premier. That I would expect to make CS7 or CS6.5

[Jim Curtis]

Hey, NJ, isn't it a bit disrespecful to characterize people who disagree with you as "mypotic?"  (It's "myopic," and Wactom is "Wacom.")

I've got a Wacom, too, and I've not found it much of a boon for editing.  But again, this is my experience.  I use the tablet with my left hand, and a mouse with my right.

IMO, one thing Avid got right in spades was the default keyboard commands for basic editing.  With all the mark and edit commands under the left hand, and the timeline shuttling and playback buttons under mouse control, users can to a majority of basic edit functions by keeping left hand on keyboard, and mouse in right hand, with a few trips to the JKL keys for easy back and forth shuttling.  Genius.  Not sure why Adobe put all the basic edit functions under the right hand, because the hand has to go between the mouse and keyboard often.  Lucky for us, Adobe lets us map our own keyboard shortcuts.

I don't use a slow jog to find audio edit points.  I use the visual waveform.  Faster.  Not saying my way is the right way, but it works best for me.

I rarely use the Source Monitor.  Nor do I rename and log clips.  Not my method.  I just put all my footage into one long sequence, and shuttle around that with a mouse dragging the CTI, copy and paste.  For scripted shows, I put all the takes for each scene into their own Sequence. Color code the best takes.  For documentaries, I organize my sound clips by topic in Sequences.  B-roll by type in sequences.  And so on.  (This is why I wish Pr would let us define a region to copy by In and Out.  But, they don't, so I lift or extract the marked region, then immediately undo.  The marked region goes into the Clipboard, and I can paste it elsewhere.  It's one extra step.  Not a deal-killer.

Is my way better than getting organized and naming clips and editing from the Source monitor?  I can tell you that I get to the end product much faster than I did before when I was doing those things.  And one of the reasons I get paying work steadily for 30-50 hours a week is because I get quality work done fast.  That's a value to my clients.

I support your right to put in a feature request.  I'd join with you, if there was no other way to scrub footage.  But, there is, and I've adapted to it.  If you're going to exert a lot of effort in a campaign to induce Adobe, why not focus on a real downside? 

Here's my list of feature requests:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/4392211#4392211

Another way to scrub isn't on my list.  I have other fish to fry.

[DavidNJ]

Jim,

Myoptic was response to the tone of the poster I was respondng to. On the otherhand, your use of some features and not of others further supports my point. What if Adobe removed a feature you used heavily and had selected over another technique. You are left with your second choice, which may be a distant second choice.

Note: I have nothing against having robust keyboard commands. There are lots of things they work well for, even JLK. Adobe predefine 48 keyboard commands plus another 18 for multi camera and workspace selection. Without looking, how many of those commands do you know? If you don't use Premiere for a week, or a month, or longer how many would you remember. Most Premiere Pro users are not daily use pros. When they sit down at the monitor they may remember 10 keyboard commands, maybe 5, maybe none. If you edit 30-50 hours/wk you would be at the high end for a Premiere user.

The use of the Wacom (sorry about the earlier misspelling) tablet was one unexpected use. It may be good, it probably not best for everyone. What percentage of Premier Pro and Photoshop users have one? Extensive support and some features frequently visible have funtionaly that can only be accessed with the tablets.yet they are certainly not universal.

If there was a feature I would like it would be for a ganged monitor to follow a clip while it was played. I would like to watch the scopes just as if I was viewing the while shooting (which DV Rack offered for DV and HDV but was never upgraded by Adobe) and Blackmagic UltraScope does now for SD, HD, and 3Gb/s SDI inputs. I don't know why it wasn't done a long time ago for Premiere.

Note: I'm not saying Adobe acted maliciously, just that their process was flawed and has resulted in a bad product decision that adversely impacts many users. Those users are not the ones that will leave for Avid. But they are the ones that may leave for Sony Vegas which I did before Premiere Pro came out.

[the_wine_snob]

DavidNJ,

The use of the Wacom (sorry about the earlier misspelling) tablet was one unexpected use. It may be good, it probably not best for everyone. What percentage of Premier Pro and Photoshop users have one? Extensive support and some features frequently visible have funtionaly that can only be accessed with the tablets.yet they are certainly not universal.

I have various Wacom tablets on all of my computers, and on the two that I use for PrPro work. I use them extensively with Photoshop, and cannot live without them. However, I have not found mine (up to Intuous 2) particularly useful with PrPro, but that is just me - others have commented that they DO use their Wacoms (mostly newer Intuous models) with video editing.

Over the years, I have experimented with various pointing devices, such as trackballs, and even a dedicated editing keyboard (older model now), but always relegated those to the dusty "archive of computer parts," and just go with the keyboard and mouse. My personal preferences.

Just wanted to add a bit to your comments.

Hunt

[Jumanous]

Adobe.. what are you doing???  I love cs6.. but this is just silly.  I use the jog shuttle all the time.  How hard would it be to have just disabled it and keep it as an option!!  J/K are useless unless  you could customize the increments... i.e. 1x 1.25x 1.5x 2x 3x...  Even still.. it's totally different.  It's like editing in binary, instead of the smooth transition. 

So far cs4 -> cs5 permanently destroyed additive dissolve & non-additive dissolve ... at this point I posted a complaint... cs5.5 no change but added useless cinema dissolve (call me blind but I really can't tell the difference between it and cross dissolve)
cs5.5-> cs6... additive dissolve still broken, now you break the jog shuttle.  What's next?  I'm almost afraid to see what will break in cs6.5.

Argh.. it's like you like torturing people.  So many new and awesome features so I can't go back, but now I have to lose the most useful features.  The worst thing is, if the track record is anything to go by, this one won't come back... argh.  I will cry myself to sleep tonight.

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

Jumanous wrote:

J/K are useless unless  you could customize the increments... i.e. 1x 1.25x 1.5x 2x 3x...

You can....hit J or L multiple times and it increments. Hold down shift as you press J or L and you get smaller increments. It's very nice.

Sorry you're having such a hard time on CS6. Having upgraded from CS5 (not 5.5) to CS6, and having gone through all the previous versions, I'm very pleased with CS6. I like a lot of the enhancements, the playback is a bajillion times better, etc.

I do have my own issues, and there are bugs....I'm currently cataloguing my likes/dislikes/bugs/feature requests as I work through my first few projects in CS6 and I'll make my grievances known in due time, but for all the little nitpicks, I still really love all the little improvements and some things are making my life exceptionally better in the edit.

FWIW....Adobe Media Encoder is also a bajillion times better than CS5. It's really a very full featured encoder now, and has to be making Sorensen Media sweat.

[Jumanous]

yea.. that's a big part of the problem.. cs6 is just so good... I might just have to buy a shuttle pro after they fix it for cs6

[mhdiver]

I'm with you.  I can't believe jog & shuttle are gone.  I used them in EVERY editing project.  I have a Wacom tablet for graphics work and found that it actually operates very well as a shuttle with Premiere Pro CS6.  Still, I'm deeeeeeeply disappointed that Adobe has removed such useful and needed features.  I want them back.  But until then, Wacom to the rescue.  The CTI misses by a mile for fine tuning.  The JKL option is a dog.  I like dogs, but not this one.  This one is an ugly dog.  While I'm on a rant, I'm not at all pleased with the wide/telephoto tool.  I want the mountain icon version back.  It's so much easier to use.

Who was in charge of customer research at Adobe??? 

[Jim_Simon]

I want the mountain icon version back.  It's so much easier to use.

THANK YOU!!!

The functionality of the scroll bar has changed for the worse with the combining of the zoom level.  And no chrome space whatsoever was saved in doing it!

PLEASE people, file a feature request to separate them again.

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

[jstrawn]

Jim Simon wrote:

I want the mountain icon version back.  It's so much easier to use.

Intersting. That's one I haven't missed at all... I always just used +/- keys anyways and I like be able to pan and zoom with one control if needed. But I can still empathize.

People, you need to understand that the PrPro interface had become clunky and cluttered over the years and we NEEDED to find ways to trim it down. Combining 3 controls intto 1 (mtn zoom, scroll bar, and nav bar) seemed like a good opprotunity to do that. I think if you try it for a while you might find that the math behind that new 'Zoom Bar' has really made it an efficient and elgant tool.

[Jim_Simon]

I always just used +/- keys anyways

Same here.  But when you combined the zoom bar into the scroll bar, the behavior of the scroll bar changed.

If you hold the mouse pointer anywhere in the sequence and scroll the mouse wheel, it will scroll the sequence, as it should.  But it scrolls frustratingly slow.  In previous versions of PP, if you held the mouse pointer over the scroll bar and rolled the wheel, it scrolled much faster, at a usable speed.

When you combined the zoom level with the scroll bar, it no longer scrolls at a usable speed, it zooms.  So we're left with an agonizingly slow mouse wheel scroll!

No functionality was gained by combining them.  Everything you can do now you could have done before, including zooming with the mouse wheel by holding down ALT.

No screen real estate was gained by combining them.  The one bar takes up just as much room as the two did previously.

However, much desirable functionality was lost in the form of a decent scroll speed using the mouse wheel.

In short, you made things worse, not better.

[jstrawn]

When you combined the zoom level with the scroll bar, it no longer scrolls at a usable speed, it zooms.  So we're left with an agonizingly slow mouse wheel scroll!

I'm not seeing that, but I already shut down my win machine for today and on mac I use a mighty mouse with a scroll ball and if I side-scroll, it moves really fast. Also, do you realize that you can use the main bar (between the handles) to scroll and and it moves as fast as the scroll bar ever did? Plus you have the option to zoom out with it first and make it move even faster. I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you take some time to get used to the way it works I think you'll find that it really is much more powerful that the mtn zoom/scroll bar combo was and much more intuitive than the nav bar was.

[Jim_Simon]

do you realize that you can use the main bar (between the handles) to scroll and and it moves as fast as the scroll bar ever did?

I do, and that will have to be how I do things now.  But using the wheel was just easier than grabbing the bar and sliding the mouse.

if you take some time to get used to the way it works I think you'll find that it really is much more powerful

I may get used to it, in the way some animals get used to flies and gnats, but it will never be as easy as it was. (Unless you put it back the way it was.  Which is what I really want.)

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

Jim Simon wrote:

If you hold the mouse pointer anywhere in the sequence and scroll the mouse wheel, it will scroll the sequence, as it should.  But it scrolls frustratingly slow.  In previous versions of PP, if you held the mouse pointer over the scroll bar and rolled the wheel, it scrolled much faster, at a usable speed.

When you combined the zoom level with the scroll bar, it no longer scrolls at a usable speed, it zooms.  So we're left with an agonizingly slow mouse wheel scroll!

Maybe it was addressed in the 6.0.1 update, or maybe it was there all along, but I did accidentally discover tonight that you can use the modifier keys ALT+SHIFT on PC to modify the scroll bar behavior and actually get it to act the way that it used to work. It's sort of flaky, but definitely fast enough for most purposes.

FWIW, I've also mapped the up/down arrow keys to scroll back and forth full pages in the timeline. Extremely fast, but not always exactly what you want it to do of course.

[Jim_Simon]

you can use the modifier keys ALT+SHIFT on PC to modify the scroll bar behavior and actually get it to act the way that it used to work.

No, that just makes it zoom, same as it does without any modifier.

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

Jim Simon wrote:

you can use the modifier keys ALT+SHIFT on PC to modify the scroll bar behavior and actually get it to act the way that it used to work.

No, that just makes it zoom, same as it does without any modifier.

As I said, it's flaky....keep trying it, you'll see eventually that as you hover your mouse over the horizontal scroll bar and press ALT+SHIFT that you'll get double speed horizontal scrolling. I haven't found it to be reliable enough, but clearly the function is in there, just not the way it used to be, and not quite ready for prime time. Promising however for the future, as it might be an easy enough feature request to clean it up.

It's like one of those 3D pictures from the 90's, you keep staring at it and suddenly the picture just pops out (although admittedly I never could see one of those things....)

[Jim_Simon]

hover your mouse over the horizontal scroll bar and press ALT+SHIFT

Ah, that first part is what I was missing.

I guess it's better than nothing (barely), but I maintain that this needs to be addressed by Adobe, and soon.  One modifier without hovering over the scroll bar is acceptable.  Or no modifiers while hovering is also acceptable.  But using a modifier while hovering is most definitely not acceptable; using two modifiers while hovering is so far off the mark it may as well count as not being there at all.

[jstrawn]

For what it's worth, I miss them too. I understand the agony of losing the features you use... It's like going to the grocery story and they stopped carrying your favorite kind of chips because they 'didn't sell'. That's why I always put up a fight when features are about to be removed... especially when they involve playback.

In this case, the QA part of me recognized the need to de-clutter the workspace in a big way, and once the user part of me saw how well JKL worked, I was okay with that. So I ultimately agreed with the decision to remove them (not that I had final say anyways). However, I'm not sure why they weren't kept as customizable assets in the button editor... probably because they aren't really 'buttons'. If I were you, I would concentrate my feature request on the need to have them back as customizable UI (like in a seperate 'control editor' panel or something), beause it's unlikely they will ever come back to the default set.

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

mhdiver wrote:

I'm with you.  I can't believe jog & shuttle are gone.  I used them in EVERY editing project.  I have a Wacom tablet for graphics work and found that it actually operates very well as a shuttle with Premiere Pro CS6.  Still, I'm deeeeeeeply disappointed that Adobe has removed such useful and needed features.  I want them back.  But until then, Wacom to the rescue.  The CTI misses by a mile for fine tuning.  The JKL option is a dog.  I like dogs, but not this one.  This one is an ugly dog.  While I'm on a rant, I'm not at all pleased with the wide/telephoto tool.  I want the mountain icon version back.  It's so much easier to use.

Who was in charge of customer research at Adobe??? 

FYI - depending on which Wacom you have, you can use the scroll pad on the Wacom tablet. You may already be doing that, just wanted to be sure you were aware of it.

I don't care for the new scroll bar combined with the zoom...however, I never ever used that mountain icon. Not even once, in all 10+ years of using this software. I like new scroll in/out definition (matching AE) but what I think would REALLY be awesome is a zoom control similar to Photoshop....you activate the zoom tool with "Z" key, and then click and drag left/right to zoom in/out. Drag further, zoom goes further. It's very fast and responsive. Dennis Radeke went beserk zooming in and out in Photoshop last night and about gave the whole crowd an epileptic seizure.

That would be a good feature request. Still mouse based, like the old scroll left/right function. If you're willing to take your hand off the mouse, though, you CAN still scroll (very rapidly, in fact) left/right in the timeline. Just use up/down (arrow up/down) when the timeline is the active panel and it will page left/right with each tap. Try it, it is very fast.Totally keyboard driven, which I think is of course the theme of this release. Keep your hands in one place as much as possible.

Speaking of the Adobe demo last night, I saw a total keyboard driven edit sequence that blew my mind. Trimming, rolling edits, ripple edits....everything done without touching the mouse. Very fast, but requires me learning how to work that way, of course.

[Jim_Simon]

Keep your hands in one place as much as possible.

Agreed.  One on the mouse, one on the keyboard.

[jstrawn]

what I think would REALLY be awesome is a zoom control similar to Photoshop....you activate the zoom tool with "Z" key, and then click and drag left/right to zoom in/out. Drag further, zoom goes further. It's very fast and responsive.

Regional zoom is already available in CS6, just press 'z' (or select the magnifying glass from the toolbar) and then click and drag. It doesn't work as intutively as in PS though because you are zooming in on a timeline as opposed to pixels. Scrubby zoom is not a feature in PrPro but I agree that it would be nice to have. (side note: I always turn scrubby zoom ojf because I still prefer regional zoom, but I understand why a lot of usrs like it). But scrubby zoom may be even harder to use hard to use in a timelne environment, especially if you're in the default tak display dtyl of 'show head only'.

Are we too far off topic now? There's really two things going on here: 1) Shuttle/Jog controllers gone in CS6 (which I agree is unfortunate that they arenlt an option) and 2) MtnSlider/ScrollBar/NavBar combined into ZoomBar (which I personally love, but I totally respect the reasonings and opinions to the contrary). If the UI zoom bar discussion needs to continue, I suggest someone (a user or mod, not me) sarts a seprate thread on it to keep thing organized and searchable.

@ Jim: I know having to buy new hardware (especially an apple prodcut) is not desirable but a mighty mouse (or other-brand equivalent (??)) should help your wheel-scrolling woes. I just did a quick test with both mice on both OS's and my generic usb mouse wheel on scrolls much slower on both patforms than my mighty mouse does (also, on mac you have to hold cmd just to get the it to scroll that direction with the wheel). Additionally, I'll log a bug that scrolling is to slow with a baisc mouse wheel and we'll see what we can do.

[Jim_Simon]

I'll log a bug that scrolling is to slow with a baisc mouse wheel and we'll see what we can do.

That would be very helpful.  Thank you.  Because after looking at that Mighty Mouse, it just ain't ever gonna replace my $15, perfectly ergonomically designed, Engage mouse.

[jstrawn]

Actually, looking back at the title, the mouse-scrubbing problem is probably on topic too, although we're really talking about scrolling, not scrubbing now, but it's proabbyl less confusing than trying to migrate to a new thread... I just need something (from users) to reference in my bug report.