high speed scrubbing (cs6)

[Keith_Clark]

where did the scrubbing dial go? is it gone? or hidden? i miss it =( i also don't like the fact the zoom in feature has changed. but not as annoying as the scrubbing. so is scrubbing axed? (i realize you can do it with the playhead, but i liked the dial better.)

[Jim_Simon]

I just need something (from users) to reference in my bug report.

Mouse Wheel Scrolling Speed Sucks!

By the way, if you guys need a reference as to how fast to make it, using your non-Mighty Mouse go back to any previous version and put the mouse pointer over the horizontal scroll bar while rolling the wheel.  THAT was a usable speed.  Not too fast, not too slow.

Now, there are a few different ways this can be implemented.

1. Keep the one bar, but change the default scroll speed.  I can't imagine anyone likes the current crawl.

2. Keep the one bar, but change the behavior while holding the pointer over it.  Put it back to faster scrolling and require the ALT modifier for zooming (as it used to be).

3. Keep the one bar, but add another modifier for faster scrolling, like Shift. (Only one key for this though, no combinations.)

4. Separate the scroll and zoom bars and return all to the way it used to be.

[jstrawn]

if you guys need a reference as to how fast to make it, using your non-Mighty Mouse go back to any previous version and put the mouse pointer over the horizontal scroll bar while rolling the wheel.

I just did that, with CS 5.5, which is why I logged abug. Thanks for the lead.

Mouse Wheel Scrolling Speed Sucks!

Objective, professional-sounding criticism is usually take more seriously, but I'll take what I can get. ...And, please remember, we're all on the same side... We want the best software possible for ALL our users. Thank you for your continued support.

-James

[Jim_Simon]

OK.

Mouse Wheel Scrolling Speed Unusable

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

jstrawn wrote:

Regional zoom is already available in CS6, just press 'z' (or select the magnifying glass from the toolbar) and then click and drag.

Scrubby zoom is not a feature in PrPro but I agree that it would be nice to have.

(side note: I always turn scrubby zoom ojf because I still prefer regional zoom, but I understand why a lot of usrs like it).

But scrubby zoom may be even harder to use hard to use in a timelne environment, especially if you're in the default tak display dtyl of 'show head only'.

Are we too far off topic now?

- Yep, I typically use that and have for years (however long the zoom tool has been available....I guess forever). Like the scrub zoom of PS much better.

- Agreed with your agreement.

- I did use to turn off scrub zoom in PS because it wasn't doing what I expected (which was what it used to do, which was regional zoom). However, once I got used to it, I know get frustrated when I hop on someone else's machine and they have an old version of PS or have it set to regional zoom.

- For video, I usually have the track toggle "minimized" to free up space for my audio waveforms. I don't normally need to see the video headers or frames, so when I'm zooming in, I'm not so much trying to see the video as the waveform on the audio track, or to get down to a more precise mouse-controlled edit (drag-and-drop, or matching up audio waveforms, etc). Being able to hit Z and then instantly scrub down to the CTI would be excellent. I guess it might also work to just have a reverse operation to hitting the "\" key to fit all the timeline contents in view. Maybe allow something like "SHIFT+\" to zoom all the way in, whether in frame mode or audio samples mode.

- And yes. Sorry, I helped that along.

[Steven_Pribilinskiy]

Christian Jolly wrote:

I do have my own issues, and there are bugs....I'm currently cataloguing my likes/dislikes/bugs/feature requests as I work through my first few projects in CS6 and I'll make my grievances known in due time, but for all the little nitpicks, I still really love all the little improvements and some things are making my life exceptionally better in the edit.

Will you publicate them?

[Steve_JK]

This is my first post which should mean something.

I luckily used a client's computer to learn all of the major issues with CS6 because I was about to buy 7 Master Collection Upgrades (from CS5) and now I won't buy a single one. The Shuttle being removed is huge for me and the inability to hit numbers when editing Multi-cam with playback stopped is a total dealbreaker for me.

When I go thru video in the Source window, my fingers sit ready to hit Q, W, I, O while my right hand uses the mouse to move the shuttle and CTI so I don't have any extra fingers to hit JKL & Shift.

When I edit MC video, I always stop playback to select the camera angle and use the shuttle to move forward and backward slightly because thats the only precise & fast way of moving the CTI in a 1-2 hour event. I don't like Record mode because 1) it is not a precise way of selecting camera angles at all  2) when stopping playback, the last camera angle sometimes changes  3) hitting Undo removes ALL of the changes since starting record.

Speaking about SPEED: you say a keyboard is faster than a mouse for editing. Well, a Tablet is even faster so why not force everyone to use a Wacom Intuous tablet? Then, only allow Premiere to work on CUDA enabled computers because it makes Premiere faster. Then, force everyone to use dual 20" or larger monitors because editing is faster. Faster doesn't mean better or more efficient and forcing everyone to what you consider as the fastest is not user/customer friendly.

PS  It is NOT possible to edit with ONLY keystrokes - how the heck do you adjust a Curves effect?

You'd think that Adobe would see how angry Apple made many people with its vast new interface, yet, Adobe makes the same mistakes. Unless these issues get fixed by the end of July, I am moving everything to Media Composer 6.

[Jim_Simon]

the inability to hit numbers when editing Multi-cam with playback stopped is a total dealbreaker for me.

Now that's just silly, especially when all you need in a CTRL modifier

my fingers sit ready to hit Q, W, I, O while my right hand uses the mouse to move the shuttle and CTI so I don't have any extra fingers to hit JKL & Shift.

Q and W no longer work.  And as it happens, I and O are directly above J, K and L, so it's not that big a stretch ('bout half an inch, actually) to move the fingers up to I and O.

When I edit MC video, I always stop playback to select the camera angle

That's not a very efficient work flow.  Cut it live and then go back over it in sequence and tweak it.  MUCH quicker overall.

Faster doesn't mean better or more efficient

Uh...it kind of does.

[DavidNJ]

"Simple" Simon,

"Now that's just silly"

That is just rude and disrespectful. In an industry largely dependent on piece work that attitude is a good way to stay unemployed.

"Q and W no longer work."

I have no idea what those keys did, but that part of the keyboard is under your left hand. JKL is under your right hand. That means it can either low dexterity hand, out of position if the user is right handed, or with the right hand in lieu of any use of the mouse.

"Uh...it kind of does."

No it doesn't. It means some group of people on specific workstations may be happier for something that adding wouldn't have effected them at all, since the controls are now optional.

Everyone can develop what works best for them; you aren't the arbitrer of workflows; my guess is yoiu have no formal  education or professional experience in workflow design, user interface, ergonomics, etc.

Steve,

On a different note, the injestion with Prelude and the color correction in SpeedGrade (for me especially with the MacBeth card) make the CS6 upgrade worthwhile. Audition also had very valuable enhancements. Warp stabilizer was already in AE.

However, that only be for one of your workstations. An alternative is to license the Creative Cloud for one workstation to get those features.

[Jim_Simon]

that part of the keyboard is under your left hand. JKL is under your right hand.

No.  All keyboard shortcuts are under the left hand, the mouse is under the right hand.

Despite all the improvements made for keyboard editors, you still can't escape using the mouse at some point in an NLE.  Probably will never be able to entirely.  So...one hand on keyboard, one on mouse for most efficient flow.

No it doesn't.

Yeah, it does.  Efficient means "Acting or producing effectively with a minimum of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort."  Translation - faster is more efficient.

[DavidNJ]

"Yeah, it does.  Efficient means "Acting or producing effectively with a minimum of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort."  Translation - faster is more efficient"

The problem is your narrow understanding of the issue. To you, "efficient" is about operator speed. An operator with your level of training, who spends the time you spend on it, who is trying to accomplish your objectives, with your input media for your output targets, with your workstation, monitors, keyboard, mouse, and other input devices.

There are lots of people with different degrees of training, who spend different amounts of time on editing in Premier vs. their other activities, who have different workstations, different input devices, and all manner if individual physical quirks. For example, you clearly don't think Michael J Fox should be using Premier Pro, or any number of disabled veterans.

It is efficient for many of us, and I wouldn't be surprised if a more accurate customer survey showed most of us, are better with alternatives other than JLK. I would use left/right arrow way before using JLK for jog. Left right arrow is situated for right hand use, and shift key is only a short distance away.

If you had any background in ergonomics you would know that JKL is not well positioned for left hand use. You would also know that the numeric keypad on the right is a major ergonomic problem with mouse use, moving the right wrist awkwardly to use the mouse.

This is a mouse and keyboard designed to fix that problem: http://www.evoluent.com/

[Kevin-Monahan]

DavidNJ wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if a more accurate customer survey showed most of us, are better with alternatives other than JLK.

Regrding your charge about a "more accurate survey," I've told you a number of times about the Adobe Product Improvement Program. Thousands of editors are enrolled. This program covers a broad cross section of users, including those that don't use Premiere Pro all that often. The information we get from these users is completely objective.

There's no conspiracy here, my friend. Kindly, look into it.

Adobe Product Improvement Program

[DavidNJ]

Kevin, I'm rather surprised that rather than investigate correct practices for marketing research you insist on defending the undefendable.

Your Adobe Product Improvement Program program is about as accurate a representation of the Premier Pro user population as a whole as a survey of delegates to the Democratic National Convention is representative of the political views of the population as a whole. You probably would have had a different result than the recent vote on union benefits in San Jose where Adobe is located if you had sampled those delegates.

It is also unclear how accurate the survey itself is. Where the shuttle and jog controls instrumented? if so, how was it recorded? One click on on jog or shuttle control can be the equivalent of dozens of clicks on JLK.

So there are at least two problems: your sample was biased and your test was probably not correctly instrumented for the decision you are saying it was used to make.

Now, back to JLK. The 3rd middle finger has less dexterity than the 2nd index finger. The 4th ring finger has less dexterity than either. Finger dexterity is not independent between fingers, with the fingers interacting. Everyone can do a simple test. Start by putting a list of numbers between 1 and 3 in a list. Maybe 50 or so. Put your fingers over three keys and click in sequence each of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers repeatedly. Then do them following the sequence. You will find speed and accuracy attenuated. One example of this in the popular culture are the people who can't do Leonard Nimoy's Vulcan salute.

Finger dexerity declines with age and can be impaired by illness, injury, and birth defects. Removing Jog and Shuttle probably places Adobe in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

• 3x speed? Type LLL
• 3x down to 1x speed? Type JJ
• Slow to .3x? Type K/L at the same time.
• Left and right arrows, previewing, subclips, etc. work the same way."

That is very hard to do with fingers unless you have the dexerity and have practices. It is also in fairly big jumps. 2x is double 1x. 3x is 50% greater.

For comparison, shuttle and shuttle moves between extremes with a vary small wrist movement. Extreme accuracy is available by moving the mouse on a diagnonal, which increases the ratio of mouse movement to control movement. Users can seamlessly and with minimum conscious thought or training move between fast and slow modes.

These controls were excellent, and IMHO the mouse worked better than the dedicated jog/shuttle control or JKL.

Ergnomics is a field that is extensively studied. There are many false starts. For example, BMW's iDrive was supposed to give them an industry lead. Poor design let others pass it for over a decade. Audi's MMI is an example of a much better overall design where the movement is intuitive.

In studing different interfaces it is important to have neutral subjects trained equivalently on the different interfaces compare make the evaluations. And there needs to be objective data of their use and learning curves. This is the same of any program. It is very easy to bias a test.

The keyboard we use was designed to move the most frequently used keys such as vowels to be under weak fingers or a reach. That was to slow typists so they could use the mechanical 19th century keyboards. Learning curves have hindered adoption of better designs, although it was a big thrust in the 1990s, as were keyboards shaped to more naturally fit the reach of the fingers.

JLK is a similar quaint vestage of a time long past. From Wikipedia:

HJKL keys

HJKL is a layout used in the Unix computer world, a practice spawned by its use in the vi text editor. The editor was written by Bill Joy for use on anLear-Siegler ADM-3A terminal, which places arrow symbols on these letters since, like the original Mac shown above, it did not have dedicated arrow keys on the keyboard. These correspond to the functions of the corresponding control characters Ctrl-H, Ctrl-J, Ctrl-K, and Ctrl-L when sent to the terminal, moving the cursor left, down, up, and right, respectively.(The Ctrl-H and Ctrl-J functions were standard, but the interpretations of Ctrl-K and Ctrl-L were unique to the ADM-3A.) This key arrangement is often referred to as "vi keys". HJKL keys are still ubiquitous in newly developed Unix software even though today's keyboards have arrow keys. They have the advantage of letting touch-typists move the cursor without taking their fingers off of the home row. Examples of games that use HJKL are the text-based "graphic" adventures like NetHack, the Rogue series, and Linley's Dungeon Crawl. It is also used by some players of the Dance Dance Revolution clone StepMania, where HJKL corresponds directly to the order of the arrows. Gmail, Google labs' keyboard shortcuts and other websites use J and K for "next" and "previous"

Kevin, the question is how many people on the product management and product planning staff have advanced degrees in marketing, market research or statistics/sampling, or ergonomics. Adobe is within a short distance of Stanford where the staff can learn or contract people who already have those skills.

If your or your management needs help in framing the problem before you can seek the appropriate assistance in these areas, you can contact me privately.

[Steven_Pribilinskiy]

How about hardware solutions?

[Jeff Bellune]

David,

I couldn't find your response to Jim Simon's request in post #53 of this topic for your statistics from your own surveys of Premiere Pro users.  Did I miss it in all the other posts, or have you not posted them yet?

Jeff

[Jim_Simon]

Removing Jog and Shuttle probably places Adobe in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Now THAT is the most creative argument I've heard yet for the restoration of these obsolete controls. 

[DavidNJ]

Jim Simon wrote:

these obsolete controls. 

Mouse controlled jog and shuttle that allow easily controlled variable sensitivity with far less movement than any dedicated hardware and more accuracy than either is "obsolete".

However, keyboard controls that date from an early 1980s UNIX editor are a state-of-the-art user interface.

You have an interestingly distorted view of the world. One of these days you will upgrade your car to a more current model, maybe an Edsel.

[Steven_Pribilinskiy]

Maybe it's time for OCZ NIA!

Jog and Shuttle with your eyebrows and the head

[DavidNJ]

Prosthetics are really advancing rapidly. I've heard a panel where one member was a mountain climber who lost both feet to frostbite 30 years ago but is now climbing again. Artificial limbs are responding to signals to other muscles. MRI's of brain activity can determine what someone is thinking with significant statistical significance.

However, it seems some posters here may be more interested in Souvainaid which should be on the US market next year; it will be marketed in Brazil beginning in August. A 'medical food' its ingredients are claimed to increase the rate of new synapse growth by creating a synapse specific enhanced nutrient enviornment. Early research shows a statistically postive result for mild cognitive impairment. The developer, an MIT professor, believes it may also have a role in treating stroke victims.

[shooternz]

Attempting to ignore your not so well disguised insulting comment thrown at members of this community...but where do I get myself some of this Souvanaid?

Surely Mods...this thread now needs to be consigned to the Video Lounge due to the ridiculous turn it has taken.

[DavidNJ]

I usually don't get into these online street fights, but was rather taken aback by the hostile nature and intolerance of others by some posters. I was also surprised to see how week the market research for the product had become. When this happens products are usually driven by the biggest clients who write the biggest checks. However, because of volume discounts and high support costs they are often the least profitable.

Souvainaid is scheduled to be in Brazil in August, Europe in the fall, and the US 'sometime next year'. Estimated cost is $1500-2000/yr. Demand may be high from people who feel they are becoming impaired, whether they are or not, and are able to afford its relatively modest cost. Some may think they are cognitively impaired from having to go from a simple smooth mouse movement to an awkward J-L-K tapping like a crazed chicken. High demand may reduce availability, so it is important the jog/shuttle controls are restored first!

[Steven_Pribilinskiy]

Are the results of Improvement Program available somewhere?

Of course the data was observed by the Team, but it would be really interesting to see some consolidated tables with data generated from the Improvement Program.

[mhdiver]

I must say, this thread is entertaining.

[Steven_Pribilinskiy]

Are the results of Improvement Program available somewhere?

Of course the data was observed by the Team, but it would be really interesting to see some consolidated tables with data generated from the Improvement Program.

Maybe somebody can give an answer?

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

Wow, just stumbled across this...surprised this "discussion" is still going.

Scanning through the last 125 posts or so (and that's insane)....I'm pretty surprised with all the personal attacks, lack of advancement of the topic and general nonsense that it hasn't been filed off in the lounge yet, or at least been subjected to heavy redaction by the mods at the very least.

[Jeff Bellune]

I'm pretty surprised with all the personal attacks, lack of advancement of the topic and general nonsense that it hasn't been filed off in the lounge yet, or at least been subjected to heavy redaction by the mods at the very least.

This thread doesn't belong in the lounge, IMO, because it deals with a perfectly valid feature request for Adobe Premiere Pro CS6+, and because it provides some insight into how CS6 got to where it is.  It hasn't been shut down or heavily edited because at least 2 Adobe employees are still actively participating.  The personal attacks have mostly been veiled and implied, and any that weren't were dutifully ignored by their targets.  So far, post content from almost everyone has provided a good barometer of the passion and mindset of people on both sides of the issue.  Still, we're not out of the woods yet, and things can change rapidly.  Rest assured, we're watching.

Jeff

PS - don't expect detailed moderator analyses like this in the future; this case is unique.