How to transcode Canon 5D mark II H.264 video into something editable?

[fabriziorizzo]

QT Pro v7.5 plays my 5Dm2 native video files just fine. Premiere CS4 however... unusable. I've heard that transcoding the H.264 40Mbps videos to another format allows a better editing experience.

Hardware:
Dell Precision 690, 1 quad-core 3GHz processor, 12GB RAM, 15000 rpm SAS system drive, 1TB SATA video disk (non-RAID), 1TB SATA temp disk (non-RAID), Quadro FX 3500 graphics card (non-CUDA unfortunately)

Question is... what is the most efficient format to transcode into?

A tutorial on Vimeo for Final Cut Pro on a mac mentions HDCAM EX as a format to use. (http://www.vimeo.com/2373679)
I don't see that option as shown on the Mac from my Vista box using either Adobe Media Encoder CS4 or MPEG Streamclip v1.2.

If I start a project in Premiere CS4 using the HDCAM EX 1080p presets, what is the corresponding Media Encoder format to choose for converting my clips before importing to Premiere?

I'm currently testing the following output format in AME:
MPEG2 Blu-Ray: 1920x1080,23.976 fps, Progressive, Quality 5, no audio, VBR 2-pass, bitrate setings of 25 min 35 target 40 max.

Has anyone determined a transcoding process that provides full HD quality while maintaining any ability to scrub and edit Canon 5D mark II video in Premiere CS4?

[Rainydaiz]

I'm not sure if this would work but i read a thread a while back where the using Mpeg streamclip (free) to convert the files into the Apple intermediate codec worked.

[the_wine_snob]

B & H Photo has just published a GUIDE to using a DSLR to capture video. This might prove useful to anyone using the Canon 5D/7D, or the Nikon D-series DSLR's.

Hunt

[PaulieDC]

Thanks Hunt. It's good info, but surprisingly LATE in the game. We all went through the "how do we do this" headache many months ago. But, duh, I just realized that people are still buying these things and THEY haven't lived through Headache 2009, so this is a good post if your an FCP user. He doesn't offer much by way of us PC users, but I guess I'll have to check out the freeware converter he talks about, although it's going to be hard-pressed to beat the $99 NeoScene by Cineform. My editing problems are GONE because of that utility. True, I end up with humungous AVIs to edit (turns 1GB 5D2 raw file into 2.5gb AVI), but disk space is cheap, and you can always delete the AVIs when the project is mastered. BTW, I actually disagree with his statement that the file format should be kept in QT format, the AVIs work fine and are the preferred format for Windows. Having said that, I find that on Windows 7 it doesn't matter. I can open raw H.264 QT-format raw 5D2 video clips and play them smoothly in QT or WMP, so I guess he's half right. As soon as we can convince the world how antiquated, slow and downright KLUNKY XP is and get them switched over to 7, life gets a tad easier.

Hey, but what are we worried about?? CS5 and a GTX285 will put that whole problem to rest for PC users, right??? lol! It'd better! But since I worked out my workflow with NeoScene, I honestly forgot that I ever had editing issues.

BTW, OT: what happened to the Wine Snob nickname? We all got used to that!

[the_wine_snob]

PaulineDC,

I had not poured though the article, but just hit some of its high-points. Looked like a good bit of info.

Have you though about doing an article outlining your use of NeoScene and the Canon 5D/7D material? If you do, let me know and we can get it up in the PrE Tips & Tricks sub-forum, so that it can easily be linked for others. If you do the article, I'll get it posted to the Adobe forum.

As for the_wine_snob, well he just disappeared one day. I had a sudden issue with e-mail notification, after I tried to help someone on the Forum Comments forum. Boom! Suddenly, I was getting e-mail notification for everything posted to any of the Premiere, Photoshop and Encore fora - every post, though I had e-mail notification turned OFF for everything. After about 2000 e-mails, they stopped as suddenly, and I had become Bill Hunt. Going back to the beginning of the Adobe fora on HTTP, I was BILL HUNT, and then with the big forum changeover, I became the_wine_snob, a screen name from the distant past, that had never been used. I could not change to either BILL HUNT, or Bill Hunt, as those screen names were taken. I stopped trying, and then after that e-mail deluge, I was automatically now Bill Hunt. Why/how? I have no clue, but the e-mails stopped, so I am just rolling with the punches. Some days, the Adobe forum thinks I am WAHunt3, but I just log-out/log-in and all is cool. I just hope that WAHunt3 is not out robbing banks, or something bad. He seems to come and go, so I just ignore him.

Hunt

PS - let me know about that article, as it might well help many others.

[PaulieDC]

Wow, Hunt, that is some wild email/account/login mania! It'd be interesting

if we could see what's happening under the hood... maybe feed the hamster so

he doesn’t slow down on the belt, lol!

Sure, I can put something like that together. I bet if I bring up my posts I

can copy and paste it together then polish it up. For newcomers to the DSLR

video invasion (you know, the one where everyone is an overnight video

editor/specialist?), it'd probably be helpful to have a "here's the real

story" post to save them a lot of grief, and the forum a lot of redundant

questions. We're in the midst of preparing for an upcoming move in 8 weeks

to Scottsdale, AZ, but I think I can squeeze it in. BTW, did I see you

mention that you're in the Scottsdale area also? I work as a software

developer for a semiconductor manufacturer and they are closing the

Cincinnati plant and offered me a relo to our Corporate HQ in North Phoenix.

Naturally we jumped at that offer! As my wife and I approach 50, we'll take

the warmth.

BTW, my email address is paul@in6days.net if you need to easily reply.

Thanks!

Paul DeCesare (I go by "Paulie"... it's an east Coast thing, although I

don't admit to everyone that I grew up there, trying to forget that part,

lol...)

[the_wine_snob]

PaulineDC,

Whatever you can put together would be helpful. Just let me know and we'll decide how to best handle getting it up in a post with some staying power.

As for Scottsdale, yes, I am in north Phoenix, about 12 miles due north of the city center, just above the Tapatio Cliffs at the North Mountain Preserve and the Pointe Lookout Mountain Golf Course. Scottsdale officially begins about 60 blocks to the east of me.

Real estate is a good point to buy, or to rent. Both PHX Metro and Clark County, NV, had their boom continue longer than most other areas of the country, but then when the bubble burst, we were hit hard. We I sitting on a lot of liquid assets, I'd be buying selected properties, in hopes that things got back on track. My neighbor's home (about 4 years old) was originally listed for $3.2M and sold for $900K. Had I known how low it had gone, I'd probably have bought it, moved across the street and then completely rebuild my home. There are a lot of real deals out here now.

Summers can be a bit rough, but with a good misting system, a pool, and some common sense, they can be managed. I promised my wife that I would never complain about the heat, when we moved down from Colorado, and except for one Autumn, when the heat just did not let up, like normal, I have been true to my word. Right now, we have beautiful dark blue AZ skies, highs in the lower 70's and cool enough at night to grab a sweater and a vest (at least on our lower, north-facing patio. Even with the Summers, I can golf 365 days per year, though in July/August, I do seek out more traditional course with lots of shade! Don't forget to drink about 3x the water that you are used to.

Good luck, and I think that you will really enjoy AZ. I was surprised at how lovely it is here, though will admit missing CO for many reasons.

Hunt

[PaulieDC]

Hunt, GREAT info, this is always a help when moving to a new place. Thanks!

While we have been in Cincinnati for the past 5 years, we came from Oregon

(talk about culture shock) and miss the beauty of mountains and vastness. We

know the SW is different from the NW, but it's got incredible beauty (Sedona

is amazing!), and we can't wait. The midwest is old and flat and cramped and

humid... we're DONE with that!

And you reminded me of something: "I can golf 365 days per year".

Yahoo!

[Richard Crook]

I have put together a useful guide to those just starting to use the Canon 5d for cinematography, whom also use Adobe Premiere for editing.  I think you'll find this will save you alot of time from searching for all of this stuff.

http://crookedpathfilms.com/blog/2010/02/04/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-canon-5d-mk-ii-and-adobe-pr...

Happy shooting,

Rich

[PaulieDC]

Rich, thanks for doing this article. It nicely summarizes in a "one-stop shopping" list all of the things I have researched and pulled my hair out over since the Fall of 2008 when this insane camera was announced (and I got it line to get one). I'm glad you showed NeoScene as THE conversion tool for editing, I can't seem to get that one through some people's heads on other forums... and yet they keep struggling.

BTW, the one area I see completely opposite in your list is audio. I agree that if you want the 5D2 to record audio, you need Magic Lantern and JuicedLink. But being a long-time audio guy, I can't digest the 5D2 audio regardless of the converter device, it's S/N is so-so, headroom is limited and since the camera has to churn out video it would seem that the best solution is to NOT record audio on it. So my question to you is, why not record audio separately on something like a Zoom H4N which does 24-bit audio? It has XLR inputs and Phantom power, excellent device. I'm asking that to really know the answer, because I'm missing something somewhere. To me, having the audio bed as a constant then fitting the video is a great solution. If the videographer misses the button and doesn't get the first few words, etc, the audio is still consistent, and you can always patch up the video with a B-roll clip of audience, etc, depending on what you're shooting. Anyway, just curious what the drawback of separate audio is... thanks!

[Richard Crook]

Great to hear the POV of a professional audio engineer!  I should update the guide to include a sync-sound system.  The only real downside to using this method is having to sync up in post.  But in most cases it's worth it.  But for a one-man-band like me, it bogs down the workflow tremendously.

I guess I based by decision off the sound quality from the experiments done here: http://www.canon5dtips.com/2009/08/canon-5d-mark-ii-audio-exposed-video-review/.  It seems the JuicedLink is a great option, allowing direct recording to the camera without having to sync later.

I think the Juiced Link option doesn't compare to using pro audio gear in a sync sound workflow...but we can say the same thing for high-end video cameras too.  I use an HVX200 with audio recording via the cam's XLR inputs all the time, because it's an accepted workflow in most video production.  If I was using it decked out with a lens adapter and stuff for use in a feature film...I would hire an audio engineer to record audio seperately in the field with the appropriate mixer, etc. But people still use the camera's inputs all the time.

So I guess it comes down to what one is using the camera for.

[PaulieDC]

Yeah, I did watch those same comparisons on Vimeo several months back, but you found them embedded in a great website! I haven't been there before (Canon5DTips).

Well, to keep workflow simple, I can definitely see the advantage to having your audio embedded. Plus you're probably a whole lot more proficient at getting footage, I'm still a total noob there (been doing still photography for years, Photoshop for years, Premiere for 1½ years, and ENG run-n-gun shooting where I can for the last year, SO much to inhale!). So I find that having the full audio bed is a crutch to my quirky footage, but it's getting there... slowly!

Anyway, that answers my question which I appreciate. Looks like the recording method is totally A or B, whatever fits the DP's workflow. It is a pain having to toggle two systems when shooting alone, I grant you that. For what I do I often at our church I have the luxury of getting the WAV file from the soundboard, but I'll still pop my Rode VideoMic on the 5D2 to at least get decent audio so I can match the waveform to the good audio file in Premiere (I often forget to clap or something at the start of the shoot).

Thanks for the insight Rich! Much appreciated!

Paulie

PS: I've posted this in other places, but I've attached a screenshot of EQ settings from Soundbooth that can be used in the event that you get stuck with onboard sound from the built-in mic (it may happen at some point, hopefully not too often!). Send the audio to Soundbooth, then open the EQ and set it to 30-band, and this should help salvage the sound. You may want to roll off a bit more of the bottom end if your dealing with a male voice in an enclosed room, etc, to cut a little more boominess (and any lens noise).

[the_wine_snob]

Rich,

Thank you for posting. I have added your link to some discussions on the 5D/7D elsewhere, plus to a Tips & Tricks article.

Appreciated,

Hunt

PS - saw your Encore question, and wish that I could reciprocate for what you offered here. Good luck.

[Bob Dix Photographer]

No , but you can easily do it by using the cheap Premiere Elements 4, place the H.264 MOV clips, 4GB at a time into the timeline>render> export to movie>Save to Premiere Pro, it comes in as a Cineform avi file or Microsoft  aiv., make uncompressed,at Pre-determined Project setting> render if you must> edit should be fast> Export to Tape in HDV or save as m2t file , Import in Elements and Export to Blu-ray if you wish , you could edit in Premiere Elements but, Premiere Pro 1.5.1 leaves it for dead. CS 4 or CS5 should work , but, CS5 should work without all the messing around.You will need an Adobe System requirements computer ?

Good luck.

Message was edited by: Bob Dix

Ps Obviously Quicktime Version 7.6.8 should be installed so that you can use the H.264 MOV files ?

Message was edited by: Bob Dix

Ie., (1675)

[PaulieDC]

It's funny Bob, this thread began before CS5 was officially released... and now we see what it can do there's really no reason to clutch to previous versions. I have to be totally honest, I sometimes want to holler out "LOOK, CS5 is light years ahead with that MPE, just invest in it and an i7 rig with a boatload of ram a $300 GTX 470 and you won't have any problems!!". I do understand that people are on budgets, I really do, but to be honest, high-end video editing is not for the budget constrained, that's all there is to it. I may not make friends saying that, but it's true... you can't nickel-and-dime-and-freeware if you want pro results. Folks need to start out with a consumer HD cam and Premiere Elements if they have a budget under $500, and just use that to learn editing at a basic level, there's a lot you can learn in that environment. But I see on other forums that people are actually appalled that we tell 'em they need more than one hard drive or that their Compaq Presario with integrated graphics is not going to cut it. It's the same in photography, people balk at my $1500 16-35mm lens and say "I can get an 18-200mm for 150 bucks!"... yeah, and the images look like it to. I dunno, guess I'm just rambling, I just think people who want to do this should get serious and make a commitment with time and money. I'm just sayin'...

[Bob Dix Photographer]

Hi Pauline DC,

Somhow this original problem ended up in my e-mail and I thought it had been solved long ago. Mind you, I have been very ill and just recovering, just as well I thought it was the 21 century and CS5 had not solved the issue.

In any case we have run the curse of H.264 mov files  from the lovely Canon 5D Mark II and have had few problems using Adobe Premiere Elements 4 and Premiere Pro 1.5.1, for 5 years just happened to be in the old Pentium 4 3.2GHS with Raid and hyper-threading  and it used to handle this stuff with some sort of difficulty,.have done it seems 100's Export to Tape and now Blu-ray where will it all end , I used to run 35mm in the old days and sometimes you wonder where all the quality has gone, some photographers can't even focus on an elephant using auto focus, well I am rambling now .

Now have the latest T5500 Workstation Quad Core I7 64 bit and everything sings along, will go to CS5 when the patches etc settle down but, honestly the old software still does the job it has been revived wish it could do the same for me,..Oh,' the Nvidia Quadro FX3800 does work quite well..........

Enjoy the winter over there,, from down under>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We are basically still photographers from the Hasselblad era, Medium Format which seems to be equalled by the Canon 5D mark II, have gone from S-Vhs Panasonics, Sony Digital, Panasonic 3CCD's SD Widescreen 16:9, Canon EX 1-Hi 8,,to Canon HDV  HV20/

30/40 , and now Canon 5 D mark II, 35 mm CMOS and all the lens's, what a great time to live !

Bob

Message was edited by: Bob Dix

This was in reply to Fabrzio _Rizzo,I did not read the rest of the info, nor did I read the date , as though I had gone to sleep for two years ?

Of course we now mainly use High Definition

[PaulieDC]

You're right Bob, it sure is a good time to be an image making artist! And my reply was really just chatting about many threads, not so much this one... I just noticed the old dates too! Catches me off guard, because you get the email as if it's a live thread. I often marvel at replies I wrote that I don't even remember writing, lol!

Hope you recover well...

Paulie

[Korin_Unka]

I just render the entire workflow (yellow bar) after an offline edit... anyone know of issues with doing this?

[PaulieDC]

No, except for time and extra bulk on your hard drive. A three-minute music video will work fine, it'll only take 3-10 minutes to render. The problem is if you are rendering a 90-minute production on a time schedule. A potential 5-hour render is possible, so that's where having the Mercury Playback Engine and a good CUDA card becomes an advantage, no rendering. You can cut your project in real time. Then transcoding for output becomes your only long task, perfect for the midnight to 7am slot when you're snoozing.

[Korin_Unka]

I find the job is actually quite quick, you create the offline clips using Super, bring in all the mov files and set them to offline... edit, unlink them, add your color correction and render it all out... once rendered just minor tweaks which don't matter as its all green line rendered.... of course I do all my interview footage on teh ex3 and all the pick ups on the 5d which makes it alot easier with no rendering on the interview stuff.... but the offline edit means you arn't editing over the top online files.... i was just more interested in what adobe does render the mov files to ... are they avi? just thinking if there is any qaulity loss?

[Korin_Unka]

btw I come from a film camera background and love taking stills on this camera using all my nikon lenses from the old

manual nikon fm2