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How to use Wide Gamut workflows in Adobe Premiere?

Explorer ,
Jul 09, 2021 Jul 09, 2021

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Sorry to re-open this old thread/wound.

 

I am attempting to export out of Premiere, Sony Venice debayered as S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3. The idea is that I export an ungraded ProRes 444 master out of Premiere and grade it in Resolve.

 

Setting timeline working space to Rec709 and exporting Rec709 looks *almost* right but seems to have some gamut clipping or compression. Setting working space or export space to PQ or HLG results in something else entirely.

 

I was hoping I could export to a larger gamut out of Premiere and "Color Space Transform" in Resolve, but so far I have not found a way to map the Rec2100/PQ or HLG back to Sgamut-3.cine/Slog3. Some Adobe secret-sauce at play maybe?

 

R Neil Haugen, any thoughts on how to accomplish this?

 

Best,

Jerome

 

[Moderator note: discussion split off from old thread to new one as things have changed somewhat.]

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LEGEND ,
Jul 09, 2021 Jul 09, 2021

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There's no way to export to a CineLog or s-gamut out of Premiere. I'm not even sure you could do that in Resolve.

 

To get the widest color gamut out, I would suggest using either a PQ or HLG Rec2020 sequence, do your editing. Then use that chart for exporting to either HLG or PQ in Rec.2020.

 

The Scopes panel can be set for color gamut/space also, and I would suggest doing so. As long as you aren't getting any crushed blacks showing, Premiere should not clip any highlights/whites. So check for crushed blacks in the scopes If you've got any, simply lift the image up. Don't worry about the monitoring so much ... that's still dicey unless you're running say a Decklink card out to a full HDR.

 

If you have a Decklink or AJA output to a monitor, you can probably see the PrPro image correctly. Or pretty close.

 

If your transmit out monitor is HDR capable, and in the OS settings you can set it to use that in HDR, you may get a usable image. My setup doesn't really allow for confident HDR work, as I don't have a Decklink, and my BenQ PD2720U (I think that's the name of the thing) monitor is supposedly "HDR capable" but only goes up to about 350 nits in HDR mode.

 

But again, working with sequence and scopes in Rec2020 either PQ of HLG, then exporting to ProRes following their chart settings ... and they've an updated chart around somewhere here ... you should be able to get everything out.

 

Fun thing is Adobe is on a company wide summer vacay time this week. Don't know if any developer will answer our "call" ...

 

@Francis-Crossman  ... @Trent Happel 

 

 

Neil

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Explorer ,
Jul 09, 2021 Jul 09, 2021

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Hi Neil,

Thanks for answering so promptly.

 

When working non color managed in Resolve, it will not do any kind of gamut compression/clipping. So ProRes mezzanine files for any Wide gamut (ALEXA, Sony, RED, etc.) properly preserves the gamut.

 

The HLG/PQ export out of Premiere is not making any sense. Meaning I am unable to reverse-engineer what Adobe is doing to get back to proper S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3.

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LEGEND ,
Jul 09, 2021 Jul 09, 2021

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Which part of the export process isn't making sense? Let's see if we can sort it out.

 

Neil

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Explorer ,
Jul 09, 2021 Jul 09, 2021

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Here's a 1-frame trimmed original OCM to illustrate the issue:

https://lion.box.com/s/7oo562vt302auy5qqdt5egql6avwfsyk

 

In Premiere, I set RAW X-OCN debayerying to S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3.

Timeline color working space is kept at Rec709 (other color spaces don't help).


Export settings is QuickTime Apple ProRes 444 16bit. All Export color spaces tested (Rec709, PQ and HLG).

 

Rec709 offers the closest match to properly debayered footage (as debayered in Resolve or Sony RAW Viewer). HLG and PQ is doing "something". When I take the HLG and PQ versions into Resolve, no matter what Color Space Transforms I apply, I cannot get them to match Resolve's/Sony's S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3 debayering.

 

Attached JPGs are:

- Properly debayered out of Resolve

- Premiere's Rec709 export

- Premiere PQ export

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Explorer ,
Jul 09, 2021 Jul 09, 2021

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I believe this issue stems in part due to Premiere's awareness that the source is S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3 (since the source is RAW and Premiere is the one doing the debayering).

 

If I export the properly debayered footage out of Resolve as a ProRes 444, bring it into Premiere and re-export it out of Premiere, Premiere does not touch the gamut and I get a 1:1 with Resolve's export.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jul 12, 2021 Jul 12, 2021

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Your images look washed out.

Below is what I get with color management enabled. Does this look like the original scene?
Note that I set the importer to 709. 

The sample image includes no reference colors. I'd like to see if the contrast and gamut are correct. Do you have an image of a chart?

 

In Pr 22.0.0 there curently seems to be a disconnect between Sony Raw settings and interpret footage.

The former shows sgamut.cine options for slog, but not rec2020.

The latter shows Rec2020 as the only gamut option for Slog.

 

Can yuo try with 709 as import option?

Screen Shot 2021-07-12 at 12.27.54 PM.png

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Explorer ,
Jul 12, 2021 Jul 12, 2021

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Thanks for chiming in, Lars! Your screenshot shows you are debayerying Rec709 but I need it to be S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3. So I am looking to export out a "washed out" image (aka imagery that goes beyond Rec709 gamut).

 

So I need to set the debayer to S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3 and export a ProRes 444 (or any decent mezzanine format) that includes the full S-Gamut3.cine gamut. This file will then be notched and graded in a third party software.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jul 12, 2021 Jul 12, 2021

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Can you provide a chart image?

With a chart image I maybe able to verify that colors can be correct (or not).

I don't want to speculate about color conversions or not, without reference footage.

 

The debayer always happens in original camera space, as you can't color convert CFA pixels. After debayering, you have RGB pixels. The importer may or may not convert the RGB pixels to other color spaces and may or may not label the resulting color space accordingly. Too many may's there for my comfort.

 

AFAIK ProRes doesn't support tagging media as S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3.

There are two other options: tag the media falsely as 709 (and no color conversion), or let the pixels be converted (color correctly) to a proper wide gamut space, such as BT2100 PQ.

It seems you want the former, in which case you want all color management turned off (a.k.a. 709)

 

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Explorer ,
Jul 13, 2021 Jul 13, 2021

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Unfortunately no charts were shot, but I used this specifc frame because of the saturated lights that demonstrate the debayering mismatch.

 

In a previous post I provided a JPG of how Sony RAW Viewer/Resolve/Baselight/Transkoder debayer it (properly_debayered.jpg). These four softwares all debayer the X-OCN identically.

 

I don't need accurate ncl tags since I will either ignore them or override them in other softwares. And I don't need these to be ProRes either. If rendering TIFF, EXR or DPX would match what the other softwares are doing, I'd go that route.

 

Attaching screenshots of Premiere's debayer with Lumetri scopes vs Resolve's debayer with Lumetry scopes

 

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Adobe Employee ,
Jul 16, 2021 Jul 16, 2021

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Thanks. Yes, I see the difference.

Look at the gap between the lower reds in the center of the scope.

Resolve is more like Premiere's SGamut, not SGamut.cine.

Right now, not sure how to set PR to match.

 

Screen Shot 2021-07-16 at 4.00.00 PM.png

 

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LEGEND ,
Jul 16, 2021 Jul 16, 2021

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Thanks for popping back in Lars. I couldn't sort this out myself, but my HDR "setup" is still pretty low-confidence as far as I'm concerned.

 

Neil

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Explorer ,
Mar 01, 2024 Mar 01, 2024

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Hi Lars,

Curious if any updates have been made regarding this in the last few years.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 01, 2024 Mar 01, 2024

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They've done some major rebuilding of their color pipeline. So many things have been sorted out mostly better.

 

But what do you need to do? This thread was a pretty specific thing ...

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Explorer ,
Mar 21, 2024 Mar 21, 2024

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Just hoping that Adobe's debayering of Sony RAW to S-Gamut3.cine/Slog3 now matches Sony's/Resolve's/Baselight's.

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Explorer ,
Jul 19, 2021 Jul 19, 2021

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Out of curiosity I tested Premiere's S-Gamut3 debayerying and that doesn't match either.

 

To be clear, Resolve's debayerying in both S-Gamut3 and S-Gamut3.cine matches:

- Sony RAW Viewer

- Baselight

- Colorfront

 

Premiere is the oulier.

 

I was curious to check out other RAW debayerying in Premiere. I can confirm that RED debayerying (REDWideGamutRGB/Log3G10) and ARRI (ALEXA Wide Gamut/LogC) match the manufacturers' own tools (REDCine X and ARRIRAW Converter respectively).

 

I do hope Adobe will look into fixing soon the Sony debayerying so that it's in line with Sony's intent.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 21, 2024 Mar 21, 2024

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Sounds intriguing. How did you test the debayering in Baselight, in Resolve, and in Premiere? i'd love to hear about your process!

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Explorer ,
Mar 21, 2024 Mar 21, 2024

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This is the single X-OCN frame (ie unprocessed RAW source) I provided earlier in this conversation:

https://lion.box.com/s/7oo562vt302auy5qqdt5egql6avwfsyk

 

  1. Bring it into the various softwares, make sure the debayering is set the same for all of them:
    Gamut: SGamut3.cine
    Transfer Function: Slog3
    ISO/WB/Tint/etc.: Camera metadata
  2. In each software, render the frame to the filetype/codec of your choosing (TIFF/ProRes/DNx/DPX/JPG/EXR/etc.)
  3. String these out in any software and compare visually and with scopes.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 21, 2024 Mar 21, 2024

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Describe the differences between Premiere and the others ... and you've got a Baselight system, wow ...  😉

 

Better yet, add screengrabs of the scopes.

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Explorer ,
Mar 21, 2024 Mar 21, 2024

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R Neil, screengrabs of the various debayers are attached in one of my earlier posts. Easy to see the (subtle) differences between them, both visually and via scopes.

 

If you're staying in Premiere from start to finish, this is a non issue.

 

But if VFX plates are processed in any software other than Premiere, and Premiere's debayer is used for the OCM/Drama portion, when it's time to apply the grade from OCM to VFX, those subtle differences will not be easy to fix.

 

This is what prompted me starting this thread almost 3 years ago: VFX work done outside of Premiere did not line up with Premiere-debayered material, adding a lot of unexpected work for the colorist.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 21, 2024 Mar 21, 2024

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That would definitely be an issue ... no question there. And getting both the Resolve and Premier images side-by-side, yea, there are differences. Small enough that for "normal work", they wouldn't matter.

 

But I can see that going to vFx and/or to Resolve and back, that could be a real painful thing.

 

@Fergus Hperhaps might care to comment.

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