iMac Pro Premiere CC2019 H264 washed out color in renders - solution?

[M-1 Studios]

So we now have TWO iMac Pros with OSX Mojave using Premiere Pro CC2019 that experience washed out color issues when exporting in H264.  It happens in both Premiere and Media Encoder as well.

I've read workarounds about adding an adjustment layer with P3 to Rec709 LUT file but is that a LUT download somewhere?  I don't see that as an option.

I also have read about checking a color management selection in the export settings but I don't see that anywhere either.

Really frustrating because its now happening on two iMac Pro 2017 models running Mojave.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!!  Thank you!

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi M-1 Studios,

I have a LUT in my personal possession (an experimental LUT to address this issue) that may work for you. I'll reach out via email.

Thanks,
Kevin

[RobSchanz]

I've read many different topics on this and really no one seems to "solve" the problem which frankly might be a little too technical for me to understand.  There is a very noticeable difference and I don't think it's due to monitor calibration as Neil continues to tell everyone. As a disclaimer, I'm not a "colorist" however I've been shooting stills and video for 6-8 years and doing mostly my own still editing but not coloring.  Who would have thought motion would be this complicated and this counterintuitive.  I have a short turn around and due date today which is why I'm doing the color.

Here are screenshots to compare my issue:

As seen in Pr:

As seen in Quicktime:

[rodneyb56060189]

If you need it quick and are happy with viewing in quicktime, I would probably just do a fast adjustment to your entire timeline by darkening the whole thing by about 7 % …

It's a guessing game for this sort of fast down and dirty correction.  What you see in PPro will look 7% too dark, but when you export and see it in quicktime it should be closer to what you want.

sorry, but that's the fastest way in order to get it out and done 'today'.

[RobSchanz]

Thanks for the advice!

Unfortunately, it's not about me being happy with viewing it in anything.  I get a little lost on the calibration sunject sometimes because most people that I'm delivering work to seem to be viewing on iMac's and phone screens so it seems like it makes the most sense to edit with the Mac color space.  That said, it obviously doesn't compensate for changes in color based on Pr to QT.

[Vinay Dwivedi]

I hope this helps.

Color management in Premiere Pro

[R Neil Haugen]

You are missing the basic fact that is the heart of the problem. You are dealing with two rather different color space/profile and color management systems.

The article Vinay referred you to does an excellent job laying this out.

And understand that what you and the other 3-5% worldwide of Mac users see on your screen is different than what the other 95-97% see on theirs.

Because the OS and monitor settings are using different color space/profile settings.

And no apps seem to do a good job of auto-remapping to "translate".

So you can use the "Enable Display Color Management" option in Preferences so Premiere understands the system is using an ICC profile for the Mac P3-Display screen and remaps internal monitors to show a fairly accurate view of the media as if it was on a Rec.709 system.

This means your exports will then display appropriately on standard Rec.709 system. Including around the web. But they will not look the same outside of Premiere on Mac Retina (P3-Display) screens.

For that, you would need to use the LUT engineer Francis Crossman supplies to apply on export to modify Rec.709 media to display on a scene-referred gamma 1.96 screen. That media will probably not look particularly good on any of the vast majority of standard screens out there.

Yea, it's a pain.

Neil

[R Neil Haugen]

And a separate reply to the final comment that most of the people you work with are on Nacs so prepping for Mac devices makes the most sense.

That's a very common and understandable reaction.

There is an inherent difficulty with it though  ... and first you need to answer the question as to what the majority of your end consumers/viewers are going to see that media on?

If your total audience is the 6-13% of screens worldwide that are Apple users ... or really only the 3-5% that are Mac users with newer devices  ... then it's a no brainers, go for Mac compatibility.

If your users are going to include the other 95-97% of screens, well ... which way do you want to go? Look better on the few New Mac screens or the majority of older Mac screens and non-Mac screens?

Unfortunately we don't have a way to upload different versions that systems could automatically select the appropriate versions. Nor do our systems automatically remap to translate data appropriate to the origination of the media and the nature of that users screen.

I wish we did.

Neil

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hey Rob,

Check out this article: Re: iMac Pro Premiere CC2019 H264 washed out color in renders - solution?

Come back with any Q's.

Thanks,
Kevin

[R Neil Haugen]

Color is complicated, complex, and NOT anything like "automatically correct" anywhere. Period. But to get directly to your problem ...

... you aren't working on a system managed for sRGB/Rec.709/gamma 2.4, which is what Premiere is set to utilize.

Up until quite recently, nearly all "pro" broadcast material was Rec.709, specified using a color space of video sRGB. Rec.709 doesn't have a specified gamma, so the base use choices were roughly 2.2 for web and 'bright room' TV expectations, 2.4 for most TV as it was thought to be likely, say, for evening viewing rather than sunlight streaming into the room ... and 2.6 for theatrical release.

Premiere is built around that video sRGB/Rec.709 pro workflow. And they chose the 'middle' gamma option as that way anything done worked mostly ok in the outer gamma situations.

You are working on Macs using a monitor in the P3 color space, really the widest gamut out there by far, a MUCH different viewing space than video sRGB. But as noted, Premiere is built to run on systems setup in video sRGB/Rec.709, and gamma 2.4.

IF you show a Program monitor or Transmit Out view on such a monitor, the media will appear correctly. Both within and outside the program say using VLC or Potplayer viewers.

IF you view Premiere's monitors on a system outside the intended viewing setup, you will get ... what you are getting. Incorrect mapping of the image to the color space within Premiere and unfortunate results caused by that after exporting.

My understanding from a number of other Mac users that have posted here is that there is a color space/profile for Mac P3 monitors available from Apple for video sRGB/Rec.709 use with that monitor, and you can acquire that and set your OS to use it as one potential help. Then both within Premiere and in VLC and Potplayer in general use on your system, the media will appear as intended.

As you noted, there is an option in the Edit/Preferences/General tab, at the bottom, "Enable Display Color Management". That was included to help those users with P3 Macs set to their normal P3 'space' get a more accurate view ... within Premiere ... as to seeing their media properly mapped to video sRGB/Rec.709.

It of course does nothing to re-map the display of that media outside of Premiere to video sRGB/Rec.709. That's up to the user.

FCPx and the Mac OS are of course hard-wired to work within the P3 space 'together' in a way not open to outside vendors, a rather typical Apple choice. So that works differently by decree from Apple.

Now ... you can either set your media to look good on that Mac P3 monitor and not-so-good on the vast majority of screens out there. OR ... you can setup a system so that your media looks good on the majority of current screens but not quite as saturated on a wide-gamut P3 screen.

P3 screens, even including 'devices', are a rather small percentage of the total screens user base worldwide.

Pick your choice. Lovely working in the modern world, eh?

Neil

[rodneyb56060189]

a note about 'being happy with what you see'.

===========

Unfortunately, it's not about me being happy with viewing it in anything

=============

I respectfully disagree. It's ALL about you being happy about what you see. It is therefore important that what OTHER people see is what you are happy with seeing.

If you look at light split up into wavelengths, via a prism, you will see that white light ( sunlight ) gets split up into different colors. What the human eye can SEE is finite.. limited.. to our basic ability as human beans.  In general ( some are color blind ).

So if what you see in your NLE is NOT what you see when you export it and look at it after it is exported, of COURSE you would not be happy. And you should be. The whole point is that you should be happy.

Focus on that and take all the technical jargon and gamut, gamma and other stuff ( the sciences of trying to FAKE what we see in real life on a screen ) with a grain of salt. You'll eventually get to where you want to be ( happy with what you are making and exporting ).

EVERY thing that fakes real life ( still photography, motion pictures, etc. ) by putting 4 dimensional stuff onto a 2 D screen ( with sound ) is just an illusion ... think about it. 24 fps is 24 individual images per second to FAKE motion in real life.

So it is with color too.

So be happy !

[Kevin-Monahan · Accepted solution]

Hi M-1 Studios,

I've read workarounds about adding an adjustment layer with P3 to Rec709 LUT file but is that a LUT download somewhere?  I don't see that as an option.

Here you go! "Why does my footage look darker in Premiere?" Color Q&A

Thanks,
Kevin