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is there a hue offset or hue angle in lumetri?

Mentor ,
Nov 29, 2016 Nov 29, 2016

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hi everyone,

is there a hue balance offset or hue angle in lumetri 2017? I use the fast color correcter hue angle now but was wondering if I was missing something. how can you guys color correct with ripple tangent with just lumetri without hue angle to line up skin tone line? Am I missing something or is lumetri still completely useless ?

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

LEGEND , Nov 29, 2016 Nov 29, 2016

I've graded with SpeedGrade which doesn't have a hue angle tool without issue. I've done some grading on Resolve without using any tool like that.

I've graded  (as far as one can) in Lumetri and preferably with the Ripple or Elements panels. Never had an issue moving skin hues.

This isn't to say that the hue angle control isn't a nifty UI for use, and I strongly suggest you file a bug/features request for it to be added to Lumetri workspace.

To shift skin or other hues I've used which ever tool see

...

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LEGEND ,
Nov 29, 2016 Nov 29, 2016

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I've graded with SpeedGrade which doesn't have a hue angle tool without issue. I've done some grading on Resolve without using any tool like that.

I've graded  (as far as one can) in Lumetri and preferably with the Ripple or Elements panels. Never had an issue moving skin hues.

This isn't to say that the hue angle control isn't a nifty UI for use, and I strongly suggest you file a bug/features request for it to be added to Lumetri workspace.

To shift skin or other hues I've used which ever tool seemed most applicable to that clip ... from hue ring (an odd but still useful UI to me) to secondaries  ... but mainly the color wheels.

I neutralize with the Basic tab, I've got 9 of its controls mapped for the Ripple and Elements panels. This makes that nearly uselessly slow tab quick and agile and we'll suited for the task. Then use perhaps some of Creative but mostly wheels and secondary to season to taste.

With media showing above 99 on the RGB Parade or Waveform  (luma) scopes, I'll throw an RGB curves effect in front of (above) Lumetri in the ECP to get the signal back where Lumetri is allowed to touch it.

At need I'll throw a second installment of Lumetri in. If I need more I'll use Patrick Zadrobilek's nifty little app so I can use both PrPro 2017 ... and grade via Direct Link process in SpeedGrade 2015.1. Then return to PrPro 2017 via his app again.

Personally ... I've never found either Fast or Three-Way corrector to be fast or at all intuitive. Nor did I like what I could get out of them. And of course there are those who love them. Different  strokes  ...

Neil

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Mentor ,
Nov 30, 2016 Nov 30, 2016

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i appreciate your response. it seems you're correct as I'm not missing anything. I view skins response as neutralizing along with white balance so the skin matches reflections of what's white in the scene; especially with delicate 8 bit footage. Having more than one actor, secondaries seems like a nightmare. aren't color wheels mostly for tinting as they affect overall highlight/shadows? i view color wheels as aesthetic grading, not shot matching. Maybe I should rethink how I grade. I match grade everything to a very flat look, then when finished, apply one adjustment layer, kinda like a log to linear mixed with a creative look in one pass.)

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LEGEND ,
Nov 30, 2016 Nov 30, 2016

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how can you guys color correct without hue angle to line up skin tone line?

Using the Temperature and Tint controls in the Basic tab.

I don't know how to access those controls with control surfaces, though.

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Mentor ,
Nov 30, 2016 Nov 30, 2016

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i really wish that tint and temperature worked. but imagine for a moment, a vectorscope shape that looks like the "+" and you want to rotate it to look like an "x". you can move it up and down and left and right but it will still be a "+" shape. like a horrible etch-a-sketch nightmare.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 30, 2016 Nov 30, 2016

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Note ... I'm a lefty and therefore used to using both hands at once. With a control surface I'm using multiple controls simultaneously. With the Ripple I can be working  all three dials at once ... or multiple balls. The way I've got the Basic tab mapped I can have up to six of the sliders moving at once ... I see the in-between states you don't one control at a time.

It's not only faster but vastly more supple and subtle.  And took only a few minutes working a ramp, 10 step wedge, and a few clips to master.

I never used this tab prior to  getting the Ripple but it's now my go-to place for image neutralization. The first step of grading.

The three major tonal controls of the Basic tab are mapped to the three dials, left to right: Blacks, Exposure, and Whites.  I set black and white end points simultaneously and will frequently be moving the middle "Exposure" dial at the same time. That control is a variation of a standard colorist gamma control with some contrast modification added.

The above is typically a couple seconds of work. Watching the RGB Parade, Waveform  (Luma),  and Vectorscope mostly.

Next I go to the balls... left is my "contrast" control ball with Contrast (which adjusts Luma contrast) mapped horizontal, and Saturation  (which is color contrast) mapped vertical.

Middle ball is Temp as horizontal and Tint as vertical.

Right ball is Shadows  (horizontal) against Highlights  (vertical).

So I'll start by backing Sat down a bit to focus on tonality and adjust Contrast while moving Shadow and Highlights also. As that gets dialed in I'll bring Sat up to taste.

Next is working the middle ball to neutralize mids/highlights neutral values in the clip, viewed in the Vectorscope and RGB Parade. Neutrals should sit over the center of the Vectorscope and RGB Parade showing an appropriate reading for the color and lighting of the scene.

I've got my neutral clip in a few seconds  ... tonality very "standard" and neutrals  ... neutral. Blacks, White's, shadow, highlights all "normal". In 10 to at most 30 seconds per clip. Not a perfect final image but a neutral one to later match with others.

For skin or other tones that are problems I'll move to either the Hue Saturation ring in the Creative tab or Curves, depending  ... and just slightly minimize say Saturation of a hue that's too much in skin.

I'll need this in only a few standard shots though.

For most clips I go from Basic to Color Wheels and adjust mids color balancing sense and scene "feel", and using all other controls there for a better look/feel as suits taste. Typically tis takes a bit more than Basic tab.

Then for those problem children  ... HSL. Following Patrick Inhofer's ideas, I mapped the -keying- controls to opt main settings, left set Hue, middle set Saturation, right set Lightness just like the controls in the UI.

For each of the three ... the dial is the center of key, horizontal ball movement controls width of key, and vertical ball movement the falloff. It's quite easy to use this way.

Then I set the modification controls for the color wheels of the HSL tab via the "alternate" mapping setting. Though  ... I'm going to pay with other controls there ...

My frustrations with Lumetri:

1) The condescending decision to limit the signal range "touch" of the Basic tab to 1-99 on the left side 0-100 scale of Parade and Waveform scopes. Done as stated so we users can't "break" our media. As my GH3 (for crying out loud! ) normally gives non-clipped data to 103 or better and sometimes to -2 within Lumetri's "understanding" I often have to put an RGB Curves effect ahead of Lumetri in the ECP panel to pull the ends into usability. If I don't, Lumetri does bizarre things to the image.

2) Lack of decent shot-matching. No 2/3-up view in the Program monitor nor SpeedGrade's nifty auto-match button that often gets one 90% of the way matched. You can create a custom workspace combining Reference and Program monitors but it's slower and not nearly as good as a real 2/3-up.

3) Badly placed slots for LUTs and looks. In Lumetri those are applied at the beginning of the Basic and Creative tabs ... which is only useful in Creative if you're using a Look to -start- your "touch" grading.

ALL camera makers design their log/RAW corrections LUTs with a properly exposed and white  balanced image ... and state they expect the to be fed a proper image: corrected exposure/WB -through- the LUT. This is how colorist teachers ALL teach  ... and how the makers demo their own cameras in use at NAB ... and how all other grading apps are designed you work, such as Resolve, which applies any LUT -after- any other controls used in that node.

And if you want to have a 70's print film look, say the soft shadow and long soft highlights? There's LUTs for that ... but as you can't apply them later than at the beginning of the Creative tab ... you either lose the rest of the controls or apply it via a second Lumetri instance with the hassles and issues of that. Change anything after that LUT you no longer have that look.

4) Lack of multiple secondaries without going to multiple Lumetri.

5) Control panel hassles with multiple Lumetri.

Well ... I feel better now ... hope this helps.

Neil

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LEGEND ,
Nov 30, 2016 Nov 30, 2016

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imagine for a moment, a vectorscope shape that looks like the "+"

I tend to mask out some skin so I can see just that in the vectorscope.

It's never anything but a line.  Broader or thinner, but always a line.

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LEGEND ,
Nov 30, 2016 Nov 30, 2016

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Skin hangs "around" that line for sure. But depending on  a number of things will be often a few degrees off the line for some humans and even one person can have a bit of a range of hues.

Training by/for colorists working fashion and commercials deals heavily with various skin hues groups (such as olive toned or red-head) and conditions  (cold/hot air temps, emotional states) that can cause quite notable variations in skin hues actor/model to actor/model ... before you even get to makeup issues.

And the questions of how far should one budget for to work skin tones towards each other within a shoot are quite involved and difficult.

In our color lab days we made our own "Shirley" reference negatives with me as the model as my non-tanned color was about as "normal/neutral" as you could get. One of our equipment vendors took one back to their lab to compare against their stock of Shirleys and said I matched their favorite. Ha!

My beautiful and fellow portrait photographer wife ... would never be usable. Her skin is glorious to the eye but has excess yellow-greens with some magenta spikes. Made color correction of her portraits a right tough job. In video, I've typically needed at least three secondaries on her alone. And if it's late in the day and her base makeup is fading  ... I don't even try interviews with her.

The eyes (and mine are very color-critical especially for a male) don't see nearly the variance  in her that cameras do.

Skin ... ain't simple.

Neil

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