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Have done a bunch of Googling and looking all around.
Just trying to find a free step-by-step, clear and recent way to get started in 5.1 Surround sound mixing.
Adobe's help just spoke about Audition.
All the others are from 5+ years ago.
Does anyone have one or know of one?
Thank you.
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Hiya.
Firstly, great to see yet another brave soul venture into the world of surround mixing. Sadly though there is no such guide that is worth the paper it took to plan it out, simply because there are no real 'how to mix in surround' tutorials in the manner I suspect you are looking for. What does exist are some superb technical recommendations I would striongly advise you to read. First up is the RPGA (Record Producers Guild of America) 5.1 guidelines.
This will give you the basics that are required to correctly set up, calibrate & utilize your mixing setup, as well as what some of the traps & pitfalls for the unwary exist. Then it will tell you how to handle the rendering of your mixes, and I really cannot think of enough good things to say about it - you need this book. We all need this book.
The other advice I would give you is frankly Do not mix for 5.1 using Premiere! Period. At all, except for valid reasons such as checking sync (although there are better ways) or - and this is the sole reason for me - unless you need to create an AC3 file for DVD or online use (although streamed surround can be a bugger, as you must always make compromises because of downmix issues). You mention that the tutorial for PPro is 5 years old - well, so is their audio engine (as a minimum, too) so no loss there - very little will have actually changed.
Use a DAW instead - Audition, Cubase, Nuendo, ProTools, Logic, Harrison MixBuss, Reaper - anything except PPro, because it's audio handling & panning in surround is not stable or solid, plus it simply isn't really designed to do this - it's an NLE. What I tend to do is bounce off an H264 mp4 file and use that in Nuendo as a sync reference. If you are worrying about audio tracks, then at the very least you can bounce each track off as a WAVE file (mono or stereo) out of PPro and rest assured things will not get out of sync at all.
Cubase/Nuendo will import AAF exports from PPro as well.
If your DAW of choice cannot handle the multitrack archive format, then AATranslator is needed, and this is another tool I cannot really live without. It can convert just about any multitrack or audio platform project type into any other - I often get sent ProTools sessions and use this to make a Nuendo XML instead, and just import it. Works a treat, too.
The big problem with 5.1 mixing is that for music the main rules are basically as follows:
01 - Do not treat the LFE channel as a subwoofer. They are totally different things.
02 - Never mix on a sub/satellite system as you cannot get the bass correct
03 - Always have your 5 main channels full range from 40Hz to 20kHz as a minimum, ideally with the top end as high as 45kHz in order to deal with High Resolution content and it's pitfalls.
04 - Bandwidth limit your LFE to 80Hz with a slope of at least 36dB/Octave.
There are additional rules for film/TV mixing though, and these are also kinda important.
01 - The Centre Channel belongs to the dialogue.
This is so the resulting dialogue can be dubbed into a different language (so be careful with SFX, especially background Walla) with relative ease, otherwise it would require a lot more work to do.
02 - Music can be either 4.1/4.0 or stereo - again, if there is any dialogue over the music, avoid centre channel. If the timing works, you could use a 5.1 music track, but the odds are you will be upmixing from stereo if you want music in the rear channels. There is a good argument to be made that the score should only ever be in stereo but as with all these 'rules', they mean less than nothing in most cases.
03 - SFX/Walla can be used in all 4 channels but again, avoid using them in the Centre as it is reserved for the dialogue.
The one golden rule we all work to?
If it sounds right, then it is right.
What, exactly, would you like to know? I would need to know what experience you have in 5.1/surround, as well as what tools you have available. Let's get you happening!
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Well, the first thing I have to say, is that in my 40+ years of computer work, video editing, etc. This is the most UNBELIEVABLY perfect reply I have EVER received in ANY forum I've EVER posted. For that, I thank you.
Long story short, I have been shooting and editing video literally since I was 10 in 1974. I'm 58 now. Although I am a very visual person (have done theatrical event lighting for that same amount of time,) audio isn't my forté.
I am working with a production company on an NDA project and want to learn how to do it. So to anwer your question, I am totally new to 5.1. Well, CREATING 5.1. I've lsitened to it many times watching movies, but that doesn't count.
The tips you gave were outstadning (even if I don't understand them all.)
I do understand what you said about not mixing in Premiere. Unfortunately, I don't knowof any other "novice" 5.1 DAWs that would work for me, again, being 99.9% video editor.
Maybe I should have worded the original post slightly differently. I want to LEARN how to mix 5.1 - really just the basics for now until I get the hang of it.
We won't be doing any action scenes or anything that would require "bullets needing to sound like they're whizzing by your head".. At least not yet.
Also understood about tutorials not being worth the paper they're written on (or, pixels they're using.)
Just wanted something that would show the beginner how to "get it going". The tutorials I've seen, don't even have all the same dialog boxes or tabs or anything. Plus, they're from 5+ years ago, as I mentioned. I am really surprised there isn't something out there for Premiere 2022.
Thank you again for the reply. I will check out that DAW you mentioned just to see if it is something I can handle
Mike
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I ma sorry I forgot to answer your last question. I don' have an incredible setup. Just a new system I put together a few month ago. Not being not audio guy, I just have a very simple 5.1 surround audio speaker system. Nothing fancy at all You'll know that instantly when I mentioned the company name: "Logitech". 🙂
The most professional piece of equipment I have is a Mackie 1402VLZ-Pro mixer. Love that thing.
Also, even though I have been doing lighting and video since 74 (learned the skills then from my dad, wasn't doing actual work that early...) fro 2012-2019 Had some family issues to take care of, so I hav ebeen out of the loop for a while. Plus, the pandemic that destroyed all of us didn't help, either. (Lost my 28-year-old backstage pass production company then, too.)
That was a great ending tho: "Let's get you happening!" Like the sound of that.
Ok, again thank you for that great reply.
Mike
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Hey Mike.
Thank you for the kind words - that just made my day.
I think I know what you will be using now you have said 'LogiTech', and they are computer gamers kit rather than serious mixing kit - personally, I would say that you are going to have to spend some money here and would recommend something along the lines of Adam Audio A3-X as they have not only a superb sound (I use A7-X on my DAW and A3-X in stereo on my NLE and that ribbon tweeter they use is oh, so much smoother than any 1 or even 2" compression drivers or Titanium Tweeter devices I have ever heard.)
But to use these you will also require a multichannel DAC - and again, the one built into a PC or a Mac mobo are not really up to the job. I'd recommend an 8-channel device so you have 6 channels for the 5.1 and 2 more for the dedicated stereo or the downmix. What I would recommend is down to your budget, but please trust me when I say the logitech are not going to cut the mustard.
Happy to take this off-forum and onto PM if you prefer, or we can keep it here.
What I would suggest, possibly, is checking out a DAW (as you have stated) and with 'Reaper' I believe it is either free for private use or ridiculously cheap - maybe try it out for 'personal' use & if you get into it, buy a license?
I use Nuendo (so if you are running Cubase it will be broadly similar) and Harrison MixBuss v7c
Once you feel sufficiently ready, maybe we can walk through setting up a project?
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Thanks again for the instant reply. There's *one* tiny little thing I forgot to mention...
Sinc I lost my company, I haven't had an income. Living off of fod stamps is VERY embarassing, but what can you do...
The production company I mentioned is still in the development phase, so there's no funds yet. I will take a look at the equipment you mentoned and see if that can be reommended to he powers that be, unless they already have stuff planned.
And yes I totally agree about the Logitech (Model X-540) not being a professional system. I just got it to hear stuff in surround.
I should also mention that another reason I am not an audio guy is the decades of work I've done in the indsutry with lighting and video, and have lost a good chunk of that hearing along the way - you know how that goes.
I am honestly hoping that whatever audo guy they may hire can handle any of that work and just give me the final to sync with the video, but since this is a new company, I have no idea what's happening yet.
I wanted to just try out 5.1 and see if i can make a test video that would make it dsound like something is litrally circling you or just going from "the center of the circle" to each speakers original "space". I have NO idea if I decribed that properly, but I can picture it in my head. 🙂
Once I get more into this, then I'd be happy to take the chat off-foum. For just right now, I'd like to learn how to get started in 5.1 and see how it goes form there in case they drop that job on me.
Thanks again!
Mke
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That's all fair enough & to the point.
Let me check my archives & see what I have, and I will post back again tomorrow.
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Thank you sir!
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peace mike, neil(s), trevor, & others:
for some reason i ended up on this forum link when i needed a quick tip about some other things in premiere pro. to preface my comment here: for me audio engineering is by far my most natural discipline, in both live and studio contexts. and even it comes to video and 2-d design my chops are better suited with a program like resolume (which has a performative infrastructure) than other things including adobe options--tho i am getting the hang of photoshop and illustrator over time.
anyway, i'm chiming in here to speak a bit of wisdom on the ever-eternal dilemma of mixing and mastering in a DIY case. i believe it boils down to a couple key points:
1) gear & production environment: quality vs familiarity.
2) end product(s): perfection/technicality vs immediacy/digestibility
i'm supposed to be working on something else right now, so i'ma keep it especially brief here:
1) at the end of the day, no matter how badass your monitoring gear is (interface, speakers, amps, dsp modeling, etc) it doesn't really do the trick without corresponding, scientifically precise considerations of the acoustics in that given monitoring environment. in this sense, i would respectfully disagree with the monitor rec from the loving & super helpful mr. neil wilkes, in recommending the Adam A7s which I think go for like $800 each (imagine that times 5, plus a sub hopefully). even for someone who already has some sort of entry level pro monitor gear, let alone a simple consumer grade logitech system, i don't think this move would be optimal. honestly, tho I personally can relate very much to SpielbergRules24x7x36 's income situation: even for folks who actually have ample income but are not embedded in the pro audiophile/engineer work environments which make it possible to truly benefit from the fidelity that higher-end products offer——it is far more useful & resource-efficient to invest in much cheaper entry-level "pro" gear, while spending more time, energy, and resources on a few things i''ll list below, after first recommending a couple options for much cheaper yet very effective studio monitors: Kali LP6 (probably my top rec even tho i haven't tried them!), Yamaha HP5, or various iterations of used Behringer Truths. Also maybe the Presonus Eris series which seems to do the trick for lots of folks. Also make sure you get a sub. It can be any sub of decent quality but you have to make sure you have a crossover which is accurately criss-crossing the cutoff slopes between LoPass (for sub) and HiPass (for tops); since you're working with surround sound you're most cost effective option will probably be a digital software/app as opposed to a dedicated hardware solution, so long as you dont need it to happen in realtime for live performance. anyway, back to the things that i believe matter more than choosing higher-end instead of entry-level audio gear:
1) really knowing/treating/enhancing your monitoring environment. Fully accepting the inevitable flaws it will manifest in comparison to a scientifically precise / accurate environment, relying on your intuition and by comparison to very basic consumer devices such as car speakers, stock apple headphones, or whatever else. "it's all relatve today" as my brother & i have said in songs long ago. you will be better of learning about / accommodating for the acoustics of a given room for surround sound implementations (and then applying them accordingly) than you will be by simply acquiring higher end gear.
2) that said, you absolutely must choose some sort of pro-ish audio interface for your speaker monitor setup. it could seriously be like $75-150 max used on reverb ebay etc and still have a magnificent impact on your work flow. of course, you have to pick a device that has enough output channels for your purposes (5.1?) and ideally with a little wiggle room for future growth. for example, i started using the focusrite saffire pro 40 like 11 years ago and today it still sounds great when used (if even just for adat preamps), and has a variety of applications still relevant today. motu also have lots of old models and probably more current OS support for those old models than does focusrite for their old models.
3) really getting to know / access the dsp tools that will help all your components of a pending surround mix/product be great / have parity ... and then then (what i know way less about): actually allow you to upmix or otherwise work in surround formats.
a) just make a given input source or output channel/bus sound dope in an automatic way (look into ERA bundle for decent results without having to understand parameters well, or even better yet, one of my absolute faves, FabFilter plugins. also here are some relevant lists of free plugins that might be helpful:
b) enable you to convert between different codecs. i haven't messed with this for surround, so i'll leave it to others if they wish to comment further. apparently tools such as Penteo or Neural or UpMix are popular and more effective than some alternatives. but then there are open source methods for those who are sufficiently brave or insufficiently financed.
anyway i hope these notes offer some helpful insight for y'all, whether major, minor, or any other mode of creative expression.
peace & blessings,
yeshua
yeshuacreates.com
consensusafp.org
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oops i didnt inlcude free plugin links as mentoned above. so here they are:
https://emastered.com/blog/best-free-vst-plugins
https://midination.com/vst/free-vst-plugins/best-free-vst-plugins/
https://blog.landr.com/best-free-vst-plugins/
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final note: if you have a sufficiently capable computer, and access to other listening environments where you can test/compare mixes youve made from that device––even with basic consumer grade equipment at your home-base, you can create products viable for professiona/public distribution.
.... and even if you don't have access to other monitoring environments that can playback your surround piece (which is far less common than having access to a 2.0 or 2.1 system of higher fidelity than your own), just remember:
if you truly believe in the resonance of what you are creating for yourself or a given audience, that feeling/conviction should always take precedence over perfecting the technical aspects of your process or the product it aspires.
to close with an iconic example: Bob Marley did not have access to any of the gear that was later used to remaster his hits (such as those featured on "Legend") before his efforts inspired the public resonance that eventually led to revisiting recordings from his earlier moments in the studio & on stage.
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"The other Neil" helping you is an incredible resource here, btw! As you have noticed. I can do color in way too deep for most people, "the other Neil" is a total audio brain.
I'll just add that you can do 5.1 in Audition, with the advantage of a fairly easy process to send to Audtion and get back into Premiere. One possibility.
And the Audition team is the entire sound team for the Adobe "DVA" section ... digital video/audio apps. The sound in PrPro and Ae is simply a simplified form of what happens in Audtion, so they all can work together.
Neil
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Thanks for that great reply as well! I will have to check out Audition. That may be easier for my old brain (what's left of it.)
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1. You'll probably want to figure out a way to get 5.0 output to 5 speakers (even if they are Logitech). You almost certainly don't need the sub initially - figure out 5.0 first. (Or maybe even do 3.0/LRC first - you can then upmix the LR to 4.1 and leave the dialogue in the centre as-is - this is how quite a lot of 5.1 content is generated. No fancy pans that way, thankfully, plus it should be guaranteed to downmix to stereo without sounding terrible).
2. Create a 5.1 sequence. Master bus will be 5.1, source tracks can match your sources (i.e. standard / mono etc). Start with a standard track with tone.
3. Learn how to use the 'touch' setting of the track mixer to record fader movements and view/edit them on the timeline. Find out how annoying they are to edit / move / delete.
4. Now do the same with the 5.1 panner - the keyframes live under track keyframes front/rear, left/right, centre and LFE
Attached is a screen recording of same. Have a play around. (I think you'll get bored of the limitations pretty quickly.)
Even though centre is muted the sound will appear to travel across the centre of the screen (look up phantom centre).
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Thank you for that reply! I downloaded your 5dot1 sample. Wanna know something? There was no sound at all! I played it directly from VLC at first. Then I dropped it into PrPro - there was no audio track 'attached' to it. Did I do something wrong? Thank you.
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Oh there's no sound it's just a quick video guide.
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I am SO embarrassed... 😞