Premiere Pro CC color / gamma shift on export - is a Premiere not Quicktime problem

[markusw90010395]

I know this is a topic of major frustration for many of us - washed out colors and a very visible gamma shift when exporting out of Premiere Pro. From what I have seen on this forum, people post all kinds of solutions / explanations as to what could cause this problem. Many people think it' a Quicktime problem, some say it has to do with video card drives, or with checking "render as linear color space" or not.

I just did a round of major testing on my iMac running OS 10.12.5 and the latest version of Premiere Pro CC 2017 - and I have to say - nothing I do fixes it or makes any difference. Whatever I export - and that's the key here - Quicktime movies, TIFF sequences, stills - EVERYTHING has a washed-out gamma shift and desaturated colors.

When I take a screenshot of my media within Premiere Pro - colors and gamma of the resulting PNG are exactly as I see them in Premiere. If go through the EXPORT function and export a still image - the colors are faded and the gamma is washed out. And it doesn't matter what is clicked in the export window - maximum depth, linear color space... nothing makes a difference.

Here is another interesting thing I found - when I reimport these washed-out exports (stills or quicktime movies, doesn't matter), inside the Premiere Pro world they look perfectly normal. When I import the same washed-out exports into Final Cut Pro X, the washed out colors and gamma stay. So there must be something in these exports (hidden tags?) that Premiere adds and that it then uses to display the media correctly. Unfortunately every other app in my Mac universe doesn't do the same and is off dramatically.

The problem is - I can't just stay inside Premiere Pro. I have to send tmy cuts out and share them with clients. I need them to see what I see inside Premiere Pro.

Does anyone on the Adobe side have any insight into this? This issue has been going on for years on this forum. I cannot believe that we are still nowhere close to a solution.

Thanks in advance for any hint.

Markus

[R Neil Haugen]

Hey, I understand that ... but again, what's the relative presentation of yours against other pro produced media on those screens?

In my testing, it was the same. Hence ... although it didn't look like it did on my screen, my files and the others I'd tested looked similar. The end-user only sees that your media looks "normal" ... even if you look at it and say it's crap.

I've flown about the country a bit over the last few months. Saw quite a few people with devices from phones to tablets watching 'content'. The quality was all over the place ... and it was all 'professionally produced', mostly streamed movies.

One flight, had a good look at three different devices playing the movie broadcast over the plane's internal system. Not even close to each other. One was harsh/contrasty if normal in saturation. Another way overloaded on sat, not bad for luma. Third ... typical QuickTime-type display ... gamma too low resulting in mids too bright and shadows washed out, not enough displayed saturation.

But on each of those devices, that's how the users are used to seeing pro material. Drives me nuts, granted ... like listening to low-quality audio files. Which is why when I can, I ... set things up. I wish I could with my phone & tablet. Ah well.

Neil

[tmksr]

Just updated to todays update Premiere 12.1.. The Problem is still the same!  So so frustrating, having spend a lot of money on adobes PRO editing application for years and now for the (only) PRO Hardware that is available from Apple, and its impossible to work with!  Yeah I know, Apples fault is the Display and Adobes the missing color management - come on, it should be possible to work with the latest iMac Pro and Premiere. You can't be serious! And now I have to spend hundreds for Final Cut X ? Or a new additional Display?

[jsyboy75]

I'm using my old 2011 iMac as a second monitor to colour grade - ironic having spent 6 grand on an iMac pro with a built in 5K monitor...

[amundlie]

Try toggling between timeline view and full screen inside Premiere. I now see gamma shift even between those 

[genec15886904]

I've been having these problems for years in almost every NLE I've used. As a stop-gap measure, I take the before and after shot, and create a LUT to compensate for that difference. In other words, despite whether my system is professionally calibrated or not, I'm only concerned with the difference between the (working) input and its output—within the system.

It's not a 100% gamma/hue match, but below is a LUT I'm using to compensate for that difference. I usually add the LUT to the final stage of export (Premiere Pro/AME) in the "Effects" tab in the Lumetri Look/LUT.

PPCC2018_Celso_Compensator.cube - Google Drive

Disclaimer: I'm using a MacBook Pro, OS 10.12.6, running Premiere Pro CC 2018, so your mileage may vary. My work consists mostly of Rec709 output.

[eifjones]

There is one simple solution to this. Adobe could just add a preview mode which allows you to toggle between its default Rec 709 standard and your current display standard. Then you can choose which standard you grade to in the programme before you export. It's an informed choice for the user. At least you have that closure for your own sanity before you send it off into the wild.

In my experience, the washed-out gamma shift displayed by QT, youtube and Vimeo IS the new standard. I rarely produce for Broadcast anymore, almost exclusively for web so I often have ZERO interest in what my work looks like on a broadcast setup. I merely want to preview in my NLE what it will look like on my desktop player and my web browsers on MY OWN computer. Then release it in the wild and get some sleep. When I'm delivering a TV spot or something to be projected in a cinema, I can use REC 709 but for everything else I just want to see what my display will show on export. It's that simple. Premiere doesn't need to have a chip on its shoulder about it. Just give the people who pay their bills the option to view their grades in different modes.

Interestingly when I export from Resolve, the same thing happens if I leave the Video settings to Auto on the Deliver panel. If I switch it to Full it exports correctly and plays in QT, youtube and Vimeo as I saw it in Resolve. I assume this is the 0-255 vs 16-255 dynamic range options. Anyway I've abandoned Premiere for Resolve because it gives me this option. I like options

[R Neil Haugen]

Yup, it's the 0-255 vs 16-235 issue ... Data levels vs Legal (video) levels.

I, and others, would appreciate if you'd post a request for this in the new 'user voice' bug/feature system they've got, which allows you to search what's been filed and to which the team often responds! It would be excellent to get user-control of the color management settings.

Adobe Bug /Feature Request form: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro

Neil

[eifjones]

Thanks Neil. Will do.

Eifion

[hakanahmet85]

Right... peeps, I hope I can share my experience and help a few people out:

Seen as many people agree that it is a conflict between PPro and the iMac P3 screen, I went and purchased myself an sRGB/Rec.709 4k ASUS screen to drag my program monitor out onto (so I now have a duel screen setup):

Asus VX24AH 24 inch Frameless IPS 5 ms Console Gaming Monitor with Dual HDMI ports, 2560 x 1440

After some setting up/calibration, I feel as though I've solved the issue on my rig. When I now view what I'm grading (on PP Program monitor) on the external Asus screen, then export... my graded file matches what I've done in PP. This graded file also looks the same when opened in Quicktime on BOTH my iMac and ASUS screen. This may seem glaringly obvious to some, but I've just removed the P3 screen from the "grading equation".

You can see the issue occurring right before your eyes..If I drag the program monitor from screen to screen, you see a "pop" then change in contrast/saturation when it moves over to the P3 iMac monitor and PP is adjusting the image to try and suit.

Ok, I'm not using a fully fledged broadcast monitor... but I am using the type of screen that 90% of people editing on PC's would use. besides I don't edit anything for t.v. The other positive to this is that I have a nice big screen to view what's on my timeline now! 

[R Neil Haugen]

Very nice delineation of the issue. And the best way really to handle it ... as it really is very difficult to try to "blend" a monitor with one color space/profile with program content of a very different space/profile.

It would be helpful if PrPro had more color management settings for the users, though. Please everyone, fill out & jump on the requests for this already filed in the new 'user voice' feedback setup.

Neil

[jsyboy75]

And also for multi core processor support. Different issue but without it the iMac pro is a total waste of money.

[alexbayyyyy]

What steps did you go through to calibrate the monitor?

Thanks

[R Neil Haugen]

Before you can be sure your monitor ​can​ be calibrated to appropriate sRGB/Rec709 standards, you need to know what the native settings for the monitor are ... if it's a P3 monitor by hardware, as in many recent Macs, that's problematic.

At that point, you need both color-aware apps and calibration.

Which is why it is so necessary to get PrPro to have user-settings for monitor profile and settings similar to what Resolve has. ​Please​ go to the UserVoice system as Reg and I have suggested, and vote/talk-up such requests.

Neil

[hakanahmet85]

Nothing fancy mate, just used my eyes! I spent a good hour or two with the same clip on the iMac screen and the new ASUS monitor... Taking PP out of the equation, I opened up a video in the native player onto both screens, then adjusted the colour/contrast settings on the external monitor until it matched what I saw on the iMac screen.

I then went on to grade some footage in PP on the external ASUS monitor, exported and made sure it looked the same on both screens, and when uploaded to Vimeo/my iPhone. Other than very slight differences purely down to screen characteristics, it's been the best results I've had since the issue made itself apparent.

Hope this helps

Hax

[alexbayyyyy]

Please can I have access to download your LUT? my gmail is edbray1994@gmail.com

Thanks

[KeithHopkin]

I had a dream last night that I was watching one of my edits on a screen at someone else's home and the color grade I thought I applied was totally wrong. I suppose it was more of a nightmare than a dream.

[R Neil Haugen]

Oh, yea. As I've seen it written by a colorist, "You can't fix gramma's green TV."

He'd graded a tv show. Was visiting his gramma in like Wisconsin or wherever, and her TV was way green. So as he was sitting there visiting with the TV always just left on, "his" show came up.

And looked horrible.

His only comfort was that, relatively speaking, it looked pretty good compared to the way other shows appeared. Within that whole green-screen TV thing ...

Neil

[abrahaml38060045]

exactly my problem, i can't explain it better. help please

[R Neil Haugen]

PrPro works internally in Rec709/sRGB using mostly a 'data' or 'full' level setup, 0-255. And does its best to display a Rec709/sRGB image within the program. Rec709 being the main broadcast standard, and that standard is in an sRGB profile space.

If your monitor is in a full Rec709/sRGB profile and properly calibrated with appropriate gamma, you'll see the same thing in VLC & Potplayer video players.

If your monitor isn't set as above, you won't see the same thing outside of PrPro from PrPro exports. So in recent Macs that are typically a P3 space, or those who run A-RGB or ProPhoto or whatever profile, outside of PrPro the exports will look different.

However, at least as of now, PrPro doesn't have any user settings to manage it versus the display used on the computer. And the P3 equipped Macs don't allow the user to set the color space to sRGB. Which is a bit of a problem ... ahem.

Which is where running an attached sRGB monitor calibrated to Rec709 comes in as the way to check your material.

Getting Apple to actually give their users choices is probably a totally losing battle.

Getting PrPro to allow color management settings is probably the place to request changes ... so please file the feature request over on their new and nifty UserVoice 'feedback' system. You can search what others have posted, see responses from the team's engineers on some, and of course, post your own as well as comment on other filings.

Neil

Adobe Bug Report /Feature Request form: https://adobe-video.uservoice.com/forums/911233-premiere-pro

[fs91260469]

I'm getting different results exporting with my iMac Pro vs my MacBook Pro.

The source material is a still image PNG.

[R Neil Haugen]

How did you "grab" the three images? What viewer, on which screen?

You see, that makes all the difference, which is what this entire thread is about.

Your iMac and MacBook Pro have different monitors with different color spaces set to different settings in their hardware and the OS. I would hazard a guess that the iMac has a P3 monitor ... that is a massively 'bigger' color space than sRGB/Rec709, so images that 'fill' a Rec709 properly setup monitor seem to lose a lot of saturation while experiencing some color shifting and change of tonalities (lights/darks) when displayed without proper color management on a P3 screen's space.

So what you're getting is exactly what would be expected. Unless, of course, by  being aware of the nature of color spaces and standards, you actively set your system up to show according to those standards.

Neil

[lightcannonfilms]

Markus, Did you figure it out?

[R Neil Haugen]

The answer is in the replies.

He was expecting that the image would be the same no matter the color space and calibration (especially the lack thereof)  or app used to view the media.

Which is physically impossible.

One thing you have to understand when producing content for others to view on their gear: you have no control whatsoever on their screens, viewing environment, OS settings, and app/browser of choice.

For example Firefox is color-aware. Chrome and Safari are not. If you produce material so Chrome and Safari show it something like your screen in Quicktime or YouTube on a Mac P3 monitor, Firefox will show it differently. And Firefox with an sRGB calibrated monitor will show it way over contrast and saturation.

But you have to understand no one with your same hardware will actually see exactly what you see on your rig.

I know colorists with $10,000 in calibration gear and many-thousand dollar "confidence" monitors on BlackMagic  external LUT controlled boxes including for the client monitor in their suites.

One of the most common colorists issues is the client looks at both the screen for them and the colorist's program-out monitor and says about one, make it look like that other monitor.

Remember this is in the same room, with high end screens calibrated to less than a delta variance of 1.00.

So the entire concept that "I want everyone to see exactly what I see"  ... that isn't anything possible even in the same room.

Produce to professional standards and let it go. On any screen it will look like what other professional media looks like *on that screen*.

It will never look like what it does on your screen. It can't.

Neil

[CoryTV]

Just found this thread-- I recently started taking my color management on my home mac(hack) seriously, and got some bad flashbacks from 2009/2010.

I actually sent Steve Jobs an angrygram (with screenshots) and got a response almost immediately from an apple "Sr. Color Engineer" .. I was on a Macpro 1,1 with the ATI video card. I got different screenshots with the same exports.

This was around the beginning of the new quicktime & also prores, IIRC.

The results remain the same after all this time--I have no idea if the underlying issues are the same, but here's what I learned back then:

1) Some video files have a color profile embedded, depending on codec & the app. There are two layers of 'color transforms' that occur after it's exported-- both the display profile and then quicktime. There was an old switch in Quicktime 7 that could let you toggle the last one off, and would result in more consistent results-- but QTX didn't include this function--it pretty much said, nope, you're getting processed through our color profile.

Complicating matters, some older formats/codecs didn't support this at all-- At the time, I was using animation codec as a 'baseline' because it was so simple. It was weird--it took him a long time to even admit that it was doing this--might have been because he didn't know, because it was new.

I'm pretty sure the deal is that there's 'secret sauce' in OSX that created a consistent color pipeline, all the way from footage import & display in FCP > Export  as Prores > Playback in QTX.  Obviously, there was complete control with the hardware (No NVIDIA Web drivers or anything like that) and the software and quicktime-- But they didn't bother writing translations for other formats.

MP4s support a color profile flag:

mp4 - Do video formats support colour profiles? - Video Production Stack Exchange

I wonder if it might be as simple as a 2.4 gamma vs a 2.2 gamma flag in the ICC profile? If your desktop gamma is flagged as 2.2, it's going to take a file that 'looks right' in the display gamma of 2.4 in PPro, and modify the gamma for QT, based on the display gamma #.

Just some info so that if anybody else is having issues, this could help...

[R Neil Haugen]

Thanks for adding this in. Interesting to read through. Especially the idea there may be a secret-sauce pipeline built into the Apple OS and the house video apps. From everything I've seen and read, that seems way more than plausible ...

Neil