Theatrical film workflow

Report · Nov 23, 2018

Hello Mr merchant, i just read your answer on the subject theatrical film workflow. Im struggling to set up a pipeline at moment.

if you could point me in the right direction to articles here on the subject would be very appreciated . Im a bit new to forum.

Im using all the great features now directly in premiere, warp stabailzer , chroma keying colour grading.

Q, should i be using all the great features now directly available in premiere, whole timeline is just lurching .

Q. if the features are too heavy to actually use why are they there?

Report · Nov 24, 2018

I'm just curious...

Have you ever produced (as editor or anything) a commercial product for TV or Movie theatres or the web before ?

The reason I'm asking is because as a first project maybe you are not quite ready yet. You obviously have the theory down and thank goodness you are asking all the nice people here to help you figure out a workflow, but have you ever exported to a commercial product or even a home video ?

Whatever the answer is, I surely hope you keep enthusiastic and trust that you can do what you want, and succeed ! I'm sure CC stuff will provide you with all the tools to do whatever you wish, so keep it up ! Good luck !

Report · Nov 24, 2018

"Have you ever produced (as editor or anything) a commercial product for TV or Movie theatres or the web before ?"

no ...but what could possibly go wrong

Report · Nov 24, 2018

dakuswolf wrote
"Have you ever produced (as editor or anything) a commercial product for TV or Movie theatres or the web before ?"
no ...but what could possibly go wrong

Sorry, but be serious or there's no point discussing it. There are hundreds of back-office things that must be done which the audience have no idea about, and Adobe software cannot handle. Best example is the BT.1702 flash test for photosensitive epilepsy, which requires very expensive calibrated hardware. No certificate, no broadcast. Adobe's tools are pretty bad for things like ADR and raw conversion, timecode sync is a mixture of luck and voodoo, grading is.. mediocre.. and it appears you don't know what a proxy is. The A-cam footage alone for a feature film can easily top 100TB. Add another 4 cameras, then the redundant backups the insurance company expects. I've worked on sets where the DIT's media cart is worth more than the entire cast's salary.

The original question refers to a theatrical release but you haven't explained what you are trying to make, and who for. Where is the footage coming from, what post/FX is required, are you working in HD, 4K, 8K, HDR or 3D, delivering on DPC cartridges or film, adding subtitling, ADR, Blu-ray versions, etc etc etc. Nobody can make a feature film on their own these days - it's technically impossible for one person to learn all the roles in a lifetime, and the unions won't allow it. Sound doesn't do grip, catering doesn't do casting, insurance doesn't do "it probably won't go wrong".

If you have an idea, then you're a screenwriter. Possibly a director, maybe a producer. Not a DP, DIT, colorist or effects artist. Smart people hire people.

Report · Nov 25, 2018

my apologie s for annoying you with my flippancy . I assure you this is a very serious project and I am a very serious creative.I

Report · Nov 25, 2018

Yes Rick Gerard its a nightmarish process. I always take my hat off to the producers. They have to keep everything together. Grips, sparks, ADs, Sound, PA's, continuity, DITs, loaders etc etc. A theatrical release is indeed a monumental task. The general public all want to be on a movie set but haven idea. I remember a particular shot on Safehouse with Denzil Washington. Arrived at Base Camp 1pm. Moved to location at 3;30pm. Started shooting at 2am. It was insane. Small stunt shot with the Australian Stunt Team where the villains slammed into Denzils (stunt doubles) car which was supposed to flip once. Unfortunately the ramp hydraulic pressure was too high and the Jeep flipped twice. So...2 hours to reset with the sun threatening to rise. Git it just in time. Loader was fired 2 days before that for exposing while loading lol. Poor fellow. And that's just one of a million things that can and do go wrong, So OP yes lots happens in a theatrical release. I have just given you an example of an in-shoot issue.

With post the possibilities of issues can be just as daunting.

But don't stress, experience is the best teacher in this game.

Keep your chin up

Mo

Report · Nov 24, 2018

hehe, great answer !

Report · Nov 24, 2018

A friend is shooting some episodic tv (1 hour on air, about 44 min film) for CBS. Shooting anamorphic (mostly for flare effect) and cropping to full HD for broadcast ( to there's no letterbox in broadcast). Basically crop the ends of frame to HD.

Roughly 7 days shooting for each episode, 2 DP's so they alternate scouting and prep.

He gets some dailies (mp4) and can make notes to post (editor) re: mostly skin tones.

Director gets 4 days to edit ( every line in script has to be present) and hopefully it's around 44 min.

Then producer edits, and does what they want.

It gets done shooting and goes on air about 3 weeks later, so it's a really fast PIPELINE,

hehe

I have no clue how to encourage you and yet steer you to resources to help you do what you want.

The resources can appear to be overwhelming and complicated, and the nice people here are giving you some good feedback !

and everyone it trying to 'prove' they know something about what you're dealing with. hehe, that part is ( for me personally) as enlightening as anything that can possibly come out of this thread. Cause I love these people !

Report · Nov 24, 2018

"getting it done" provides a lot of clues.

This short thread has already been incredibly useful.

Not using dynamic links on AE fiels was something i would never have thought.

I've been hammering at a while now, gut feeling is that there is possible a very solid AE/ premiere pipeline for small independent filmmakers that want to make an ambitious feature film.

i think ive come to the right place

Report · Nov 25, 2018

SUBJECT

Exploration of PIPELINE development for 100 minute theatrical release, independent Film

Objectives are to design a solid working end to end system for a very small team on a low/medium budget but very ambitious visual creative ideas.

Key is identification of any problematic technical areas and possible workarounds

Question. if the pipeline works on the possible concept of all original footage being transcoded into full HD, edited in HD timeline and outputted in HD from this premiere pro timeline. How would basic, resizing, stabalizing and colour grading be applied to this footage?

Report · Nov 25, 2018

This is a fun thread.

I'm really impressed (and am learning a lot ) with the suggestions made by everyone. And also it's really nice of people to spend the time giving personal experience details and examples, so as to put things in perspective.

An older man than myself who used to produce/direct TV commercials in NY (when those jobs paid very well ) moved to NC. and got into shooting (semi retired but still working on stuff ) some documentary and commercials and industrials, etc. Also started a film school at local community college (with nice insert stage and equipment for shooting and editing small projects). Since then has started at a University teaching a little bit. He's a good friend who hired me for years in NY and taught me a few important things about lighting and shooting even though I was his grip.

He sent me an AICP bid form ( I posted that in this forum somewhere a while ago ). It has tons of info re: estimate, actual costs, insurance, etc.

The other day he sent me an email about his new course(s).. and I'll have to edit cause as a friend of his there are some things not meant for the public (bad words etc. ).

==========begin paste========

My course/s are all centered around the Digital Film as an industry/business.

I attempt to create a strong attitude in one's ability to survive.

One of the statements I make is (this question).....what year are you in?

Everyone waits until they graduate to look for a job! Wrong!!!!!

1. Have a general Idea of what you want....THEN .... Where that happens.

Fact it ain't happening in NC or SC ....... Run to Atlanta, NYC, Chicago, Europe, China.

Stray away from LA! until you have the "creds"

2. I wrote my own text book and have produced over 200 DVDs that support my thinking.
3.The Computer made it easier to produce mediocrity on mass.
5. No one (students) understands light, design, pre-production homework.
6. It's all about the size of their xxx - the camera) not ...How to use it.....Just to say
I'm shooting with a _________ .
7. I profess the business of our business. It is not a life style ..... it is a business.
8. In every class of 30 about 2 or 3 listen.... The rest perish. Thant's good it saves the industry.
9. Why do I do this..... It sharpens my skills. while giving-back.
10. Kids today..... RARELY have the basics to confront the reality of a well produced concept.

One of the first Questions I ask is "What is an F/stop" ? I explain that the answer can make or break the technical aspects of your effort............

In all the years.....Apx... 3000 students (1) answered it correctly.... I gave him an A

Every aspect of this industry is a business ..........treat it that way you will succeed to some degree. Don't and McDonald's is beckoning.

Just look at the quality of the commercials that are shot locally .... Amazing how quality falls off every mile away from these epicenters.

And the worst thing ...NO ONE sees the difference....Ooops!

=====end paste==========

Report · Nov 25, 2018

Yes im impressed too by how quick people are to add their experience.

Report · Nov 25, 2018

This is the AICP bid form ( old one when film was used )

This represents basics for producing a 30 second or 60 second TV commercial.

The agency hires the film producer/director (based on their relationship, the "reel" (visual resume), etc.)

The agency handles hiring the editing house and producer/director has some input re: final grading, but no 'rights' to the edit.

The agency deals with distribution, ASCAP, etc. (buying the time slots, tracking, etc for the client ).

So, the money comes from the agency which in turn came from the client.

This subject ( AICP FORM) is just a sample of what most people would consider small time TV commercials. Features are more complex with strip boards and all that stuff, and in terms of editing is a lot more material to handle. Like, instead of 4 days of shooting you'll be shooting or getting shots from someplace for like at least 30 days for a very small inexpensive independent film product. Probably closer to 60 days.

So, with all this going on, if someone says, "How can I save time by automatically changing all the metadata in my source footage?" it begs the question, "how much can you put into thinking and being creative, and get your 'pace' of a good edit, if you can't even deal with clicking on files ?" Nobody said that here but I've seen it in the forum.

I personally think you should go for a very short film as a first project to force yourself to learn how to organize things and work through the editing process, and do it with the same full HD stuff. You're not going to release stuff in theatre right away, so why bother with anything higher the full HD ? It's overkill and silly in my opinion to shoot high res just for the sake of doing it.

Report · Nov 25, 2018

Don't know if this idea might work for you, but it did for me. I had this idea for a film script. Had the basic story, plot, timeline, characters, and most of the thing done (on paper as story (prose) but not scripted yet ) Have to re-write, edit the story but that's a different matter.

I got a new camera that could shoot full HD. Also a way to record through the HDMI to better codec, a sound recorder, boom mic with pole, and all sorts of other stuff to shoot with. Had ( I still have it ) CS6. I wanted to TEST the camera, sound, and workflow in CS6, as I'd never done the whole thing before ( sync stuff, organize folders, put stuff together for real from beginning to end. )

Soooo, I decided to do a promo (trailer) for the as yet 'movie that does not exist'. Like a TV commercial in length.

Got a couple actors, and a guy to be the boom man, and had one of the talent do the slate for me. Shot super simple stuff ( camera static on tripod, no panning, nothin... just static for every shot ). Had to match a shot at another location so used some 32k lights with full CTO to match the lighting (simple shot of girl getting into car and saying something to driver). Was a lot of work and I rushed like crazy cause I was using some guys house as a location from 9am to 3pm. And sun was moving fast. Anyway, got the source stuff and put into cs6. Now I learned how to deal with renaming files, folder structures to keep track of everything on HD and in editor bins. Learned how to stack stuff for sync (no timecode option) manually, and deal with the actual simple edit. Learned a LOT, including whether my computer can handle that much stuff (roughly 1/6th of what a 30 second TV commercial would have for source material )

So why not do a trailer for your movie, and learn what you have to learn that way first ?? Just a thought. Worked good for me as a start.

Report · Nov 25, 2018

"Question. if the pipeline works on the possible concept of all original footage being transcoded into full HD, edited in HD timeline and outputted in HD from this premiere pro timeline. How would basic, resizing, stabilising and colour grading be applied to this footage?"

If you are transcoding into HD why are you outputting in HD? What resolution are you shooting at, what frame rate, what camera, what what pixel aspect ratio?

If this is a 1080 HD workflow its easy. You will grade (color() in PP if you choose or you can use Resolve making sure you are interlinking via XML. Stabilisation is straightforward in PP but can be better in AE.

So let's give you an example of your workflow in HD (Note I am assuming you are shooting in 4K)

1. Have 2-3 external Pro drives ready. I personally use G-Drives

2. Have your DIT transfer daily footage to drives on location and ensure he supplies a verification report on each daily

3. Once all footage has been captured (this is assuming you aren't going to offline while still in the shooting phase) create a main folder on a fast SSD. In the is folder subfolders should be a) RAW FOOTAGE b) SOUND c) VFX d) TITLES d) STILLS

4. Start by importing the 4K footage and transcoding into HD (this is if you will be using proxies)

5. If you aren't using proxies (which from your explanation I don't think you will be) transcode in ME

6. Transfer all HD footage (named and dated properly) into the RAW files folder

This main folder will be where ALL assets will live for the duration of the edit. Do not move anything out or the edit will break.

Remember tomato 2-3 copies (dependant on the number of drives you have) of this MASTER FOLDER will all assets in.

Each end of edit day you must do one save and one save copy. You should have just 2 PP save files for the duration of the edit UNLESS the director needs dailies in which case you will be working with multiple sequences that are dated but only 2 save files will remain. This creates zero confusion in versioning.

Razor Blade Tool to cut front and end of chips that need vex. Ensure you cut on the EXACT in and out points Do not leave extra unless you need to. You can do one of 2 things now:

1. Replace that clip with an AE comp which means dynamically linking or

2. Export out that clip in DPX sequence format and take into AE as a project on its own (I do it this way)

3. Export out the finished VFX shots as a DPX sequence from AE and drop into VFX folder in PP

4. Replace the file on the timeline with the replace function so in and out points sync

Same goes for grading which you can do internally in PP.

If not export the XML and import into something like Resolve. This is a new workflow all on its own and I won't go into its complexities here (lets keep it simple for now)

Stabilisation is the same as the vex shots. Cut in and out points and send to AE and bring back in once stabilised or do it inside PP. I recommend AE as you will be running resource heavy at this point.

This is just ONE of the workflows. As a quick example of another:

You can have ONE OFFLINE MASTER SEQUENCE and 1 ONLINE MASTER SEQUENCE where the final edit will live and then create daily sequences so you are breaking things up into portions. If you are mid timeline and are awaiting say a 6sec shot which hasn't been shot yet, plz add an offline placeholder.

I won't get into sound syncing etc as that's once again a workflow on its own

Once you complete on the offline its off to grade etc.

Thats pretty much one sort of workflow and its pretty straightforward as you aren't shooting with multiple format codecs, different frame rates, no super high speed I am expecting (so no Phantom Flex), If you are shooting on Alexa, Red etc you will be lucky to have your DOP drop LUTS for you. That again changes the workflow.

Since we are dealing with just post here I won't get into the complex aspects of what needs to be done in terms of lighting on set, color temperatures etc tc etc

Wishing you the best of luck

One word of advice: Stay hydrated and as much have your monitors REC709 calibrated with something like a Spyder. No use editing on consumer type monitors that have a the gamut range of an earthworms brain.

Mo

(excuse and grammatical mistakes. I type really fast)

Report · Nov 25, 2018

"If you are transcoding into HD why are you outputting in HD?"

sorry i dont really understand the question? if its hd why would it not be HD out?

this was actually one if the cruxes of the pipeline. we shoot 4K or 6K or whatever but then transcode down to HD (or probably 2.5K, with final output at 2.5K (except VFX shots) .

What resolution are you shooting at, what frame rate, what camera, what what pixel aspect ratio?"

1.5x anamorphic aprox 4K to 239 aspect ratio final. again probably around 2.5k

thank you for the idea of shooting a trailer, test. its indeed what we have done.

Report · Nov 25, 2018

"If you are transcoding into HD why are you outputting in HD?"

Let me explain. What I am asking here is if you are shooting at 1080 theres no need to transcode.

But now that i see you are shooting in 4 you will need to :

1. Proxy them to HD (only only if your final output is above HD res)

2. Transcode them down to HD if your final output is in HD

Basically what I am saying is that if your final output is going to air at 1080 there's no need to proxy as you will not be relinking to the master 4K res on output. However if you are doing vfx shots I recommend using the 4K in AE and sending back to PP as DPX

Report · Nov 25, 2018

hi thanks Mo,

i understand you perfectly. but not my question.

It seemed from some articles i read that they (specifically The Asylum productions) had massively simplified their production pipeline by taking all captured footage (red scarlet alexa etc) permanently into a hd workspace, with the logic being that there really isn't that many cases where you would need a higher resolution video delivery, theatrical release included. Also Alexa footage previously was only HD.

My question is, Is this a viable avenue to explore?

Report · Nov 25, 2018

"My question is, Is this a viable avenue to explore?"

Yes absolutely

Report · Nov 25, 2018

cheers.

setting test bed at 3055 x 1300 pixels

I plan to use proxies aswell.

Report · Nov 25, 2018

Best of luck and keep us informed

Report · Nov 26, 2018

TESTING

Mac Pro (Late 2013)

3,5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5

32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3

AMD FirePro D700 6144 MB

adobe premier pro CC2018

TEST 1.

4K anamorphic footage from GH5 H.264 codec 3840 × 2160pixels

(this slightly smaller 4K is used because footage is to be shot anamorphic)

transcoded with Adobe prelude into prorez 442 and desqueezed and resolution reduced to a widescreen video file 3353x1300 pixels (3K?)

A 100 minute timeline was set up at 3353x1300 pixels

One adjustment layer with one LUT was added

This timeline was dropped onto a HD 1920x1080 pixels timeline and rendered prorez

Media encoder is not currently working with premier so outputted directly from premiere

100 minute film render took only 41 minutes.

produced a 60GB file

unfortunately later part of render had white line corruption artefacts.

Conclusion

The compromise of baking in a lower resolution and the anamorphic desqueeze was a great success and increased render speed at least 2000 percent and more importantly created a faster and simpler editing playback in editing.

The corruption artefacts although critical may possibly be treated as a separate problem.

Report · Nov 26, 2018

white line corruption artefacts in render.

currently searching forum for latest information and solutions. any help gratefully received.

Report · Nov 26, 2018

Posting a screenshot of that could help. I think I've seen a couple other users reporting something might be like that.

Is this on exports directly from PrPro or queuing to Me?

Have you tested a section setting Mercury Acceleration to software only?

Neil

Report · Nov 26, 2018

corruption is in both media encoder and direct from premier

1 pixel line corruption every 6 frames or so after intense rendering.

had it for a while now , 8 months, only appears when you do serious render stuff.

haven't tried going to software only render yet.

Adobe says its known problem with mac and not their problem users who have it say otherwise.

adobe also say the cards in machine are damaged.

pretty depressing , i risked a lot to get the high end mac for this the film project.

Report · Nov 26, 2018

Test 2 render DCP file.

A 100 minute timeline at 3353x1300 pixels was rendered with one LUT adjustment layer from premiere through media encoder to a DCP file, wraptor DCP

rendering took 6 hours 4 mins.

Conclusion

Unable to draw full conclusion as impossible to test the resulting files or wether the file type is indeed correct.

But as an initial test it indicates that the wraptor DCP encoder should probably be rendered from finished pre rendered file at correct resolution.

Source File: /var/folders/vd/gfcg16s142l3cr5rjtsl4n440000gn/T/100minute test_1_1.prproj

- Output File: /Volumes/LaCie/TEST VIDEO BED/100minute widescreen.dcp

- Preset Used: Custom

- Video: 2048x858 (1.0), 24.0 fps, Progressive , 00:05:50:20

- Audio: 48000 Hz, Stereo

- Bitrate: Target 250 Mbps

- Encoding Time: 06:40:16

11/27/2018 03:23:52 AM : File Successfully Encoded

Mac Pro (Late 2013)

3,5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5

32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3

AMD FirePro D700 6144 MB