Using the white balance selector should turn color off

[Richard Crook]

I liked using the fast color corrector because if you have altered the settings and decide to white balance later using the selector, the color effectively "turns off" so that you may select the original raw video.  Lumetri does not do this.  If you did color corrections/grading and go back later to white balance using the selector, you are selecting the video with all the corrections/grading you applied.  I tried clicking the "FX" button to turn off the effects while selecting the video, but it still selects the video with the color applied.

The only workaround is to add Lumetri above the Lumetri effect with the color and white balance with that.  Seems like a bug.

Thoughts?

[excited_Genie16B8]

You rally should white balance as your first step.

[Richard Crook]

Well I have a grade that I saved as a preset that I drop on footage and grade from there.  I want to drop in on footage, white balance, and continue to make adjustments.

[excited_Genie16B8]

I don't know what to suggest other than to change what you want.  (Mostly because..it works.)

[R Neil Haugen]

For that workflow a preset is the wrong approach. You need to apply that as a LUT via the Creative tab.

1) Apply that preset to a totally "clean" uncorrected clip.

2) Good to the three horizontal bars at the top of the Lumetri panel tab to the right of "Lumetri", right-click, choose "save as .cube ..."

3) Give it a name starting with either the number 1 or letter A, so that a computer will sort it at the top of any list.

4) Save it in the Programs/Adobe/Premiere Pro 2017/Lumetri/LUTs/Creative folder.

Now, to use that ... on moving to a fresh clip, go FIRST to the Creative tab and from the LUT/Look drop down option select that LUT.

Then go back to the Basic tab to do your adjustments to wb, contrast white/black points to make it look correct *through* that LUT.

And go through any other controls in Creative, Curves, and on as needed. "Salt to taste."

This is also the correct use of camera specific Tech LUTs such as for media shot in Log formats.

Neil

[Richard Crook]

Stefan: Yes I know about fast color corrector.  I could simply do another Lumetri as well...which isn't a solution but a workaround.

Neil: that is essentially what I do.  No reason I can't save the effect as a preset...it's not really different from what you are suggesting.  BUT...you are saying to apply the LUT (cube) and THEN go back and make adjustments.  This is exactly the issue.  You cannot white balance with the eyedropper with that LUT applied, as it's reading the LUT color and not the clean uncorrected video.  That's what I'm saying...when you select the eyedropper, the color SHOULD temporarily turn off so you can click the uncorrected video, then turn back on after clicking.  This is exactly what Fast Color Corrector does.  I'm saying it should do the same under Lumetri, especially if they are making it obsolete.

[R Neil Haugen]

I cannot imagine using the workflow as you insist it should go. Nor why I'd want to do so.

And the way I'm suggesting to do it is very different than applying a preset, because of the way Lumetri works.

If I understand correctly, you have a preset that probably sets your tonality or general "feel" of the footage, basically maps that camera's footage to the ...curve ... whatever ... that you like? That's what it sounds like to me, and of course I could easily be wrong ... and please feel free to correct me on that!

This is exactly of course, what manufacturers do when they make the LUTs used to correct for Log or RAW settings in their cameras. They make those from clips shot in carefully controlled situations, the cameras completely white-balanced & contrast controlled by the scene/lighting they've carefully staged.

Then they shoot in the 'altered' setting state of Log or RAW, and in post correct the media to "perfect" ... save the correction as a LUT ... and it comes with the camera or you buy it.

In use, a tech LUT like that is placed (using Resolve as the example, it's done correctly in that heavy-duty grading app) in the first node ... and then in that node, with the LUT already applied, you correct for white balance, white/black points, and general tonality ... while viewing the image on scopes and program monitor "through" that LUT.

This is why any LUT used in a node in Resolve is applied to the media after the controls of that node are processed.

In PrPro, all effects are processed top-down in linear order as they appear in the Effects Control panel. Even within Lumetri, the order of processing is top-to-bottom. Period.

Something set in controls located above (before) something else gets applied to the image first. Period.

So no matter what you do after the Basic tab, if you go back up to the Basic tab and change any setting, that is applied to the media before everything after it.

Any other effect you apply and move up above Lumetri in the Effects Control Panel is processed to the media before Lumetri.

Drag it down below Lumetri, it's now processed after Lumetri. Period.

A preset is a full instance of Lumetri, with the previous settings as the were when you created the preset. Change anything, it's not that preset as-was any more, of course.

A LUT saved from a setting of Lumetri is simply the changes applied to the media in that Lumetri instance. It is not another full Lumetri instance. Nothing you do in Lumetri changes a LUT applied in Lumetri ... just the other settings either before or after the LUT, depending on which of the two slots (Basic/Creative) you use and which tab controls you use. (A LUT is a lot easier on the CPU/RAM/GPU than another Lumetri instance, btw.)

I hope this provides you some useful information.

Neil

[Richard Crook]

I cannot imagine using the workflow as you insist it should go. Nor why I'd want to do so.

And the way I'm suggesting to do it is very different than applying a preset, because of the way Lumetri works.

I get what you are saying about creating a LUT.  What I do to save time is save the lumetri effect with said LUT applied in the creative section (with no other adjustments) as a preset.  Then I drop the preset onto other clips and adjust as necessary.  I also import the LUT into my camera for monitoring purposes even though the camera still records the LOG gamma. This way I can see a preview on set how my LUT will look, I can light and gauge the scene accordingly, then in post I drop the saved Lumetri with the LUT onto the footage and adjust from there.  The problem with this workflow (which is INCREDIBLY common) is you can't eyedrop the white balance after applying the LUT because it is not balancing the raw log image, it is adjusting the colored (LUTted) footage.  Make sense?

This is exactly of course, what manufacturers do when they make the LUTs used to correct for Log or RAW settings in their cameras. They make those from clips shot in carefully controlled situations, the cameras completely white-balanced & contrast controlled by the scene/lighting they've carefully staged.

Then they shoot in the 'altered' setting state of Log or RAW, and in post correct the media to "perfect" ... save the correction as a LUT ... and it comes with the camera or you buy it.

I am actually very well trained as to the proper use of LUTs and the reason for their existence.  I have colored features, commercials, and of course my own works. I've worked under some of the best colorists in the business.  I've won awards and represented companies like Red Giant in their formation of grading software and was even one of the pro advisers for Speedgrade when Adobe was pushing it out.  I'm not trying to start a pissing contest, I'm just making sure you know where I stand so the assumption isn't made that I don't know what I'm doing. 

With that said, LUTs were not created for the purpose of installing on cameras for sale. They are used to mimic film stocks, create certain looks, but mostly for on-set realtime previews of footage because directors couldn't stand to stare at decontrasted unsaturated images on their monitors.

In use, a tech LUT like that is placed (using Resolve as the example, it's done correctly in that heavy-duty grading app) in the first node ... and then in that node, with the LUT already applied, you correct for white balance, white/black points, and general tonality ... while viewing the image on scopes and program monitor "through" that LUT.

I realize that and I love to use Resolve on large projects.  The layered style of Resolve (and Speedgrade for that matter) is exactly what they had in mind when they designed Lumetri panel.  I think it's completely reasonable to expect that the white balance tool should read the unaltered uncorrected uncolored raw image to determine white (again just like Fast Color Corrector does) and NOT read the colored image since the basic correction COMES BEFORE the creative section.  If I wanted to white balance to the LUT, I would add said LUT to the BASIC section prior to white balance rather that the CREATIVE section that comes after white balance.  Follow me?

This is why any LUT used in a node in Resolve is applied to the media after the controls of that node are processed.

That's because they are separate effects, it is understandable that after you place the LUT on the effect panel you would be eyedropping the corrected image.  If you want to balance the raw image, you would turn other effects off.

In PrPro, all effects are processed top-down in linear order as they appear in the Effects Control panel. Even within Lumetri, the order of processing is top-to-bottom. Period.

Something set in controls located above (before) something else gets applied to the image first. Period.

So no matter what you do after the Basic tab, if you go back up to the Basic tab and change any setting, that is applied to the media before everything after it.

EXACTLY.  This is where you are getting confused lol.  As I said above, applying a LUT to the creative section comes AFTER the basic section where the white balance is applied.  SO THE WHITE BALANCE SHOULD APPLY TO THE PRE-LUT IMAGE.  I feel like screaming this lol.  This is my WHOLE POINT.  If I want to white balance the LUT, I would apply the LUT in the BASIC section since that comes BEFORE the white balance. 

So again, regardless of what you do in ANY SECTION of Lumetri, when you eyedrop, Lumetri SHOULD BE only eydropping the image with any effects that come before the white balance, which is only the incoming basic LUT and NOTHING AFTER.

Any other effect you apply and move up above Lumetri in the Effects Control Panel is processed to the media before Lumetri.

Drag it down below Lumetri, it's now processed after Lumetri. Period.

Correct.  And this is why the WORKAROUND I mentioned earlier would work in my circumstance.  I would need to drop Lumetri or FCC above the Lumetri preset (that has my LUT on it) and eyedrop in there.

A preset is a full instance of Lumetri, with the previous settings as the were when you created the preset. Change anything, it's not that preset as-was any more, of course.

A LUT saved from a setting of Lumetri is simply the changes applied to the media in that Lumetri instance. It is not another full Lumetri instance. Nothing you do in Lumetri changes a LUT applied in Lumetri ... just the other settings either before or after the LUT, depending on which of the two slots (Basic/Creative) you use and which tab controls you use. (A LUT is a lot easier on the CPU/RAM/GPU than another Lumetri instance, btw.)

Right, and that means the eyedrop tool SHOULD read everything prior to the white balance in the Lumetri hierarchy including the creative LUT.

[R Neil Haugen]

A joy to "work" with an experienced person!

But I must say, I'm not seeing the behavior you're describing.

When I apply a LUT in the Creative tab, but then unclick the little box on the right side of the Creative tab, my scopes go back to the no-LUT readings. And then when I use the WB eyedropper (not something I do all that much, I'd much rather move with the Ripple or Elements according to scopes, about as fast) ... it adjusts the image as I would expect it to do.

Then I go back to the Creative tab, enable it again, and ... it does what it should do, as I can see, applying that past the WB I just applied above it.

If I leave the Creative tab "on", and then do the same (by the numbers) mod to the WB, I get the same result as setting the eye-dropper with the Creative tab turned off, or ... by doing that first, then setting the LUT in the Creative tab.

So ... something's skewey here. I can do what seem to be the same steps, but cannot replicate your result.

Neil

[Stefan Gruenwedel]

You can still find the Fast Color Corrector if you want to use it. Filter the Effects panel for "color" and you'll find it under the Obsolete folder.

[Richard Crook]

Stefan -- do you want to chime in here?  Shouldn't the eyedropper in Lumetri read the only the image with attributes that are ABOVE the white balance applied to it only?  Like the fast color corrector, it should "turn off" the color when you select the eyedropper and then turn back on when you select the image.

[Richard Crook]

Also, if I uncheck "active" on all boxes and use the eyedropper, it is STILL selecting the colored image as if all nodes are active.  This seems to be a bug.

[Stefan Gruenwedel]

@Crooked Path Films: I have asked some folks on the product team to help determine whether this feature is working as expected or if it indeed a bug. Stay tuned.

[R Neil Haugen]

Thanks for helping, Stefan!

Neil

[Dennis_Weinmann · Accepted solution]

Shouldn't the eyedropper in Lumetri read the only the image with attributes that are ABOVE the white balance applied to it only

That is correct. The eyedropper only samples colors which has been rendered before the Lumetri white-balance control.

In other words: Any effects which has been applied before Lumetri or the LUT from the current Lumetri instance are considered for the auto-wb calculation.  Any adjustments you applied after WB are not affecting the calculation, if you are experiencing otherwise it is indeed a wrong behavior. I have briefly tested that but not seeing your described issues, though.

Note that we are not bypassing the colors in program monitor while picker is active, this by design.

[Richard Crook]

Dennis Weinmann

Note that we are not bypassing the colors in program monitor while picker is active, this by design.

Can you elaborate?  Are you saying that eyedropping the program monitor is not the proper step?  Where are you supposed to select?

[R Neil Haugen]

I think what he is saying is the sampling is done from the unaltered, pre-corrected state of the media, but they are not turning off the corrections displayed in the program monitor to show they are correcting pre-controls.

Which is what I've always found. EVERYTHING in the Effects processing setup, whether in the Effects Control panel itself (and the order effects appear there) and within Lumetri pnael is processed top to bottom.

For example, if you have something changed in say the Color Wheels tab, and you go back to the Basic tab to adjust something, it doesn't turn off seeing what's applied later ... but ... what you do in the Basic tab is being processed to the image before it applies the settings you had already made in the Color Wheels tab.

Processing order ... it matters, and is strictly applied.

So ... when you use the WB eye-dropper, it's working from the media as first "seen" by Lumetri, even when you have already added settings below it. Period. You're still seeing all those other setting changes you've made, but ... they are being processed after that WB eye-dropper, not before.

Neil

[Dennis_Weinmann]

For example, if you have something changed in say the Color Wheels tab, and you go back to the Basic tab to adjust something, it doesn't turn off seeing what's applied later ... but ... what you do in the Basic tab is being processed to the image before it applies the settings you had already made in the Color Wheels tab.

Processing order ... it matters, and is strictly applied.

So ... when you use the WB eye-dropper, it's working from the media as first "seen" by Lumetri, even when you have already added settings below it. Period. You're still seeing all those other setting changes you've made, but ... they are being processed after that WB eye-dropper, not before.

Exactly, this is how the Lumetri color pickers (WB and HSL) are working! Similar to other Adobe apps such as Adobe Lightroom. You can easily verify that with a color-chart:

• Pick any color from the chart with Lumetri WB picker, note WB values
• Apply a grading after WB, i.e. with Color Wheels
• Go back to WB and reset the sliders
• Pick the color again -> result should match the first auto-wb result

Cheers,

Dennis