Variable frame rate video with Premiere Pro

[rmshro0]

Variable frame rate video comes from many places these days: phones, live streamed video recordings.

Adobe Premiere is a supposedly production level piece of software that cost a good chunk of change.

How is it 2012 and Adobe does not still have an answer to this problem?  After trying to editing/convert/mux/edit variable frame rate videos for the past 5 hours I am just exhausted.  No amount of conversion apps, etc have saved us and THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TOO.

We have spent thousands on Adobe software packages over the last decade, probably 10s of thousands, and the only answer I find consistently is to switch to Vegas.

Surely, SURELY someone at Adobe with real insight into the issue can help answer the question of whether users moving into different medium should find a place elsewhere in the software ecosystem...

Message was edited by: Kevin Monahan

Reason: to make article more searchable

Title changed.

[shooternz]

What is the frame rate you want to use and what for?

[rmshro0]

The file I am trying to edit was recorded in a streaming application called XSplit, very popular in the game / live streaming community. 

The frame rate is variable, slightly I am guessing, because the real time nature of the recording/stream.  The issue is that while WMP and VLC play the file back 100% correctly, when played back inside Premiere CS6 the file drifts out of sync so at the end of a 2 hour clip, we are talking more than a full second or so.

According to MediaInfo, here is the file detail:

General

Complete name                            : Y:\Live\2012-12-4 Farcry 3\2012-12-04_200413079.mp4

Format                                   : MPEG-4

Format profile                           : Base Media

Codec ID                                 : isom

File size                                : 4.33 GiB

Duration                                 : 2h 11mn

Overall bit rate                         : 4 713 Kbps

Writing application                      : Lavf54.0.100

Video

ID                                       : 1

Format                                   : AVC

Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec

Format profile                           : High@L3.1

Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes

Format settings, ReFrames                : 4 frames

Codec ID                                 : avc1

Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding

Duration                                 : 2h 11mn

Bit rate                                 : 4 574 Kbps

Width                                    : 1 280 pixels

Height                                   : 720 pixels

Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9

Frame rate mode                          : Variable

Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps

Minimum frame rate                       : 5.000 fps

Maximum frame rate                       : 30.303 fps

Color space                              : YUV

Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0

Bit depth                                : 8 bits

Scan type                                : Progressive

Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.166

Stream size                              : 4.20 GiB (97%)

Writing library                          : x264 core 125 r2200 999b753

Encoding settings                        : cabac=1 / ref=1 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=2 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=18 / lookahead_threads=3 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=10 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=13.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=5000 / vbv_bufsize=7000 / crf_max=0.0 / nal_hrd=none / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

Audio

ID                                       : 2

Format                                   : AAC

Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec

Format profile                           : LC

Codec ID                                 : 40

Duration                                 : 2h 11mn

Bit rate mode                            : Constant

Bit rate                                 : 128 Kbps

Channel(s)                               : 2 channels

Channel positions                        : Front: L R

Sampling rate                            : 44.1 KHz

Compression mode                         : Lossy

Stream size                              : 120 MiB (3%)

[Steven L. Gotz]

I see your keyint parameter is set to 250. I have to ask if you have tried setting it to a lower number. Like 60, or even 30? Your keyint-min is set to 25 yet wouldn't 30 be more appropriate?

If you cut back on the type of b frame that references other frames, your file size will go up, but does that really matter at this point?

See this blog posting: https://www.xsplit.com/blog.php?post_id=267

This might not be helpful, but just in case you haven't looked into these things, perhaps it could be. If you are way past this, my apologies, and I wish you luck.

It is difficult to know if the video is the problem or the audio - that assumes I understand the problem correctly, the audio and video are going out of sync? I have to ask if there is a reason you chose 44.1 instead of 48K.

Also, I see where you say you edit the video for time. Does that mean that there are lots of cuts, every few minutes at least? Or just a few? The reason I ask is that I vaguely recall that when a long GOP is cut, Premiere Pro has some calculating to do, and it might keep the drifting down to a minimum. You might try making a lot of extra cuts (after all else is said and done but before exporting) just to test out the idea. I could be wrong on that or it could be a problem fixed long ago.

[excited_Genie16B8]

Variable frame rates in video are not normal.  It is not used in any kind of professional production environment, which is the market PP is geared towards.

[rmshro0]

Maybe, but I cannot tell you how much I LOATHE this answer I see all the time from people on this and other professional boards.  I am in a "professional production environment" and we are using "professional" software. 

I realize it's not 'normal' but keep in mind that the iPhone, the most popular camera in the US today, records video at a variable frame rate and that Premiere Pro, one of the most popular pieces of software still can't properly handle it and keep in sync.

I don't understand how software like VLC and WMP can playback the file just fine but the minds at Adobe can't figure out a way for us to this video in our projects.  It just boggles my mind.

There has to be an answer!

[excited_Genie16B8]

There is.  Get your video from a real video camera, not a phone.

If you insist on using consumer hardware to record video, there are plenty of consumer level applications out there that will probably work better than PP for the task.

[rmshro0]

While I appreciate your replies, you aren't helping at all.  We use a mix of harware in our studio including consumer level camcorders, higher end devices like the 7D and 5D Mark II and sometimes we record live events as well. 

Telling a customer to "use better hardware you unprofessional loser" is about as professional as you seem to think I am.

I am looking for solutions, and actual answers as to why Adobe continues to NOT support this kind of workflow while their competition DOES.

[Not sure why your original word was stamped out by the forum software. I added a synonym that should convey the same meaning] Edited by: Jeff Bellune

[excited_Genie16B8]

Telling a customer to "use better hardware you unprofessional loser"

Hardly what I said or meant.  If you want your video to work with PP, then you need to use compatible hardware to capture that video.  With the current version of PP, that does sometimes leave out some consumer level hardware.  The solution, then, is to not use that hardware if you wish to use PP.  If using that hardware is the larger priority, then you may need to find other software to edit with.

As to why Adobe doesn't yet support it, it's more than likely because not enough of PP's market base uses it to make adding support worth the investment of limited resources.

[Flagship8787]

That is what you said.  It's on the internet for all to read, y'know? I agree with rmsshro0, you're just taunting - not helping.

[HaydenNZ]

My god, please fix this.

Having to capture video, then run it through handbreak to do a constant frame rate is horrible.

[jasonvp]

HaydenNZ wrote:

My god, please fix this.

Make a feature request.  It's how to get Adobe's attention with something like this.  They have to prioritize what and where to spend their time and resources on.  If enough folks requests VFR support, Adobe may be encouraged to work on that.  If only a few folks request it, Adobe is more likely to focus elsewhere.

[Sgtsmokey]

I read through this and i am confused to why the word "hardware" came into play. I use professional grade hardware and have found myself with variable frame rate.

There is only the software which is an issue, but there is no video game recording software that supports a constant frame rate. I use OBS, Raptr and Fraps and they are free, i have previously been a subscriber of Xsplit at $25 a quater and is used by leading companies.

I am a game developer and need to use it to share ideas and bought into the full Adobe CC package and expected it to work with all video software. When I last looked at this software it was £3,000, I don't expect to have any issues with this level of software.this

I see where the error lies though because the video fluctuates from 90-150 fps. Unfortunately it is hard to control the games FPS when your recording when your V sync is to a 200hz monitor and not 60hz.

My hardware by the way is

i7 5820k @ 4.1Ghz
16GB DDR4 2600Mhz
Crossfire R9 290 4GB OC 1100mhz
2 x SSD 512gb RAID 0

4TB Nas Back up

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Sgtsmokey,

Sgtsmokey wrote:

There is only the software which is an issue, but there is no video game recording software that supports a constant frame rate.

Are you sure about that? It seems like some like OBS and Fraps do offer CFR (constant frame rate). Can you check their support documentation?

Thanks,

Kevin

[MrLevy]

Yes many live streaming softwares support CFR with many options as well as VFR.. here's the tricky annoying thing about that though... any footage I record that is set to any framerate, eg 15, 25, 30, etc with my Avermedia LGP through RECenter creates VFR files... it's as if the framerate selection is just a target rate for it to reach... at least with my experience of using it for a while. I really love how the livestreaming technology has advanced and how user interaction options such as for Twitch.TV Deepbot (a chat assist program) really have upped the bar on live entertainment (in the video gaming industry). Having done a semi-successful live gaming webshow, I can vouch from experience. BUT what drove me nuts.. is not having an NLE that really supported the VFR files that were saved.. CFR just takes up waaaaaay to much space... imagine trying to edit 12 hour long broadcasts.... NOT fun.. let alone not having a good option to edit without coming across serious audio dsync issues. the same issues don't happen in media players... so it's only logical to think that premiere COULD handle that in the near future. With the CC subscription plan, many video game entertainers can afford Adobe products... so it's in, I think, Adobe's best interest to at least look into this further and maybe take polls with their clients under the age of 35. Just my two cents on the matter.

[Mark Mapes]

As far as I'm aware, it's not really a question whether it's possible for Premiere to handle VFR content. It's a matter of priorities. Our product backlog is full of literally hundreds of good ideas. So for everyone on this thread who is eager for Premiere to work better with VFR footage, the best thing you can do is submit a feature request. Or, if you prefer, a bug report. I realize some of you have already done so. Great! If you're so inclined, do it again.

In case anyone thinks I'm just leading you on and we have no intention of making this a priority, that's not the case. I haven't heard anybody on the team discount or disparage VFR footage on any grounds. It simply hasn't made the cut yet.

[jasonvp]

Sgtsmokey wrote:

There is only the software which is an issue, but there is no video game recording software that supports a constant frame rate.

Actually, some do, some don't.  It mostly depends on the source of the recording.  Generally, if the software is writing frames directly to disk after doing the encoding via the CPU, it'll end up as fixed.  The user experience of this type of software: somewhat lagged game play due to CPU power being diverted to recording.  The user will see their average in-game frame rate drop quite a bit.  Why?  Because it's computationally expensive to take that stream of data from the game and write a video file from it, and do so at a constant frame rate when the input is variable.  Another "bad" result is that the files are AVIs and generally massive in size.

If, however, the software uses on-board hardware encoders (eg: nVidia ShadowPlay), it does so without taxing the CPU barely at all.  In-game frame rates stay fairly constant, file sizes are manageable (h.264 MP4), and all is good.  The down side: variable frame rate files.  If ShadowPlay were to try and create a constant frame rate file out of its encoder, it would have to pester the CPU, which would affect game play.  And they don't want to do that.

Two answers that should be done in parallel:

1) Ask Adobe to add VFR support to Pr.  There are links all over this thread.  The more people that ask for it, the more likely it is to be added.

2) Transcode your footage to CFR using various freely available tools.

I'm a fan of ffmpeg, and I have a customized version built and installed on my Mac at home.  There are other tools that can do it, but I'm a big proponent of using the command line interface to do as much as possible.  With that, I wrote a script that taps ffmpeg to do the transcoding for me.  If you don't have access to ffmpeg, this won't make a lot of sense.  But if you do:

#!/bin/sh

# Path to ffmpeg

FFMPEG=/opt/local/bin/ffmpeg

# Set various options for ffmpeg

FRAMERATE=60        # Target frame rate.  Will be considered constant.

VCODEC=libx264        # Video codec to transcode to

PRESET=ultrafast    # Set a preset for quicker transcoding, if desired

GOP=50            # "Group of Pictures" option

ACODEC=copy        # Audio codec to use

OPTS="-hide_banner -vsync 1 -crf 19 -r ${FRAMERATE} -vcodec ${VCODEC} \

    -preset ${PRESET} -g ${GOP} -acodec ${ACODEC}"

if test $# != 2

then

    echo Usage: fix-vid input_vid output_vid

    exit 1

fi

INFILE=$1

OUTFILE=$2

# Do the deed.  This may take a while:

${FFMPEG} -i "${INFILE}" ${OPTS} "${OUTFILE}"

It takes a bit of time, specially with files that are 5-10GB a piece.  But I don't have any issues with the resulting MP4 files when ingested into Pr.

[Stan Jones]

I am looking for solutions, and actual answers as to why Adobe continues to NOT support this kind of workflow while their competition DOES.

Yes, let's remove the "professional" "unprofessional" issues from the equation. The bottom line is that Premiere (any adobe apps?) does not handle variable frame rate at this time. We rarely get any glimpses of why adobe management pursues some feature requests and abandons others. We are fairly confident it is related to the financial bottom line.

Feature request form.

What major editing platforms provide support for variable framerate? Curious.

I'll also say that conversion tools have been very important to many segments of the editing community as various HD and compression methods have appeared and become more popular (or not).

[rmshro0]

Currently I know 100% that Sony Vegas will handle real time editing of these files without issues but our people are simply not trained on it and I have invested quite a bit in the Adobe ecosystem as it stands.

We have used conversion apps in the past yes and it can SOMETIMES fix it by stabilizing the frame rate but other times the problem remains - this happened to be one of those days.  Also, that can add 30-50 minutes of transcode time per file to the workflow which can be damning in the world of real-time video.

[John T Smith]

A possible fix http://forums.adobe.com/thread/934466

[rmshro0]

That is indeed one of the fixes we have tried in the past, but on this particular instance the simple transcode (which is what the Quicktime Saving thing actually does) didn't fix it.

[shooternz]

Is there an alternative to X Split that might produce a more Premiere friendly file?

If some files do work when transcoded (fixed) and others dont...how can you blame Adobe for that?

If the editing  of these file is so important in your studio environment and business..why would you not train your people in an application that fully meets your needs. eg Vegas if thats the case as you say it does 100%. 

They are only tools....and choosing the right one for the job would be seemingly logical and productive.

Maybe down the track ...Premiere will be able to do what you want.

[rmshro0]

shooternz wrote:

Is there an alternative to X Split that might produce a more Premiere friendly file?

If some files do work when transcoded (fixed) and others dont...how can you blame Adobe for that?

If the editing  of these file is so important in your studio environment and business..why would you not train your people in an application that fully meets your needs. eg Vegas if thats the case as you say it does 100%. 

They are only tools....and choosing the right one for the job would be seemingly logical and productive.

Maybe down the track ...Premiere will be able to do what you want.

Both the major programs for game streaming and live stream, Xsplit and Wirecast, record files that are variable frame rates.  Both have the same problem as we have tried both applications.

The reason we are using Adobe still is that we have been using PP for many years BEFORE doing live streaming was part of our portfolio.  We still do other video projects including commercials using DSLRs for video and I'd rather not have to move away from what we have invested (in time and software) on Adobe.

[shooternz]

I took a look at what XSplit is and does.

Where does the need arise for Premiere with the files that come from XSplit?

Xsplit seems to be a self contained "live broadcaster" of media compiled within it self.  THen it streams to various "web broadcasters".

Asumeably it keeps (records)  a copy of what it is streaming?  What do you need Premiere for?

Just curious about this.

[rmshro0]

shooternz wrote:

I took a look at what XSplit is and does.

Where does the need arise for Premiere with the files that come from XSplit?

Xsplit seems to be a self contained "live broadcaster" of media compiled within it self.  THen it streams to various "web broadcasters".

Asumeably it keeps (records)  a copy of what it is streaming?  What do you need Premiere for?

Just curious about this.

After the live broadcast we take the recorded file and edit it for time and offer it on demand.