Variable frame rate video with Premiere Pro

[rmshro0]

Variable frame rate video comes from many places these days: phones, live streamed video recordings.

Adobe Premiere is a supposedly production level piece of software that cost a good chunk of change.

How is it 2012 and Adobe does not still have an answer to this problem?  After trying to editing/convert/mux/edit variable frame rate videos for the past 5 hours I am just exhausted.  No amount of conversion apps, etc have saved us and THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TOO.

We have spent thousands on Adobe software packages over the last decade, probably 10s of thousands, and the only answer I find consistently is to switch to Vegas.

Surely, SURELY someone at Adobe with real insight into the issue can help answer the question of whether users moving into different medium should find a place elsewhere in the software ecosystem...

Message was edited by: Kevin Monahan

Reason: to make article more searchable

Title changed.

[Guest]

cc_merchant kirjoitti:

Professional software expects a professional videographer to use professional tools, not cheap toys.

If the stuff you use has variable frame-rates, you are suffering the results of buying gear that does not meet professional standards. Good luck.

That is your view on things and probably most at the Adobe, but it is unbiasly wrong in some cases and shows a very narrow view point. In some cases (like in my previous post) the thing you are recording (source) has inherently variable framerate.

There are ways to record with constant framerate in these cases,  but these come with drawbacks and compromises. With other professional software you don't have to make these sacrifices and compromises.

There is also inconsistency with the products when it comes to this: variable bitrate is handled fine by Prelude and After Effects, but not by Premiere.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Jonathan,

Jonathan Metsäsalo wrote:

cc_merchant kirjoitti:

Professional software expects a professional videographer to use professional tools, not cheap toys.

If the stuff you use has variable frame-rates, you are suffering the results of buying gear that does not meet professional standards. Good luck.

That is your view on things and probably most at the Adobe

That's not the case, feel free to add your voice by filing a feature request here: http://adobe.ly/feature_request

Jonathan Metsäsalo wrote:

There are ways to record with constant framerate in these cases,  but these come with drawbacks and compromises. With other professional software you don't have to make these sacrifices and compromises.

That's why a feature request is so important.

Jonathan Metsäsalo wrote:

There is also inconsistency with the products when it comes to this: variable bitrate is handled fine by Prelude and After Effects, but not by Premiere.

Unfortunately, all software has different code and different capabilities. Sorry if this interrupts your workflow. Personally, I would love to see Premiere Pro handle variable frame rate video.

Thanks,

Kevin

[Sgtsmokey]

So many trolls on here saying the same thing "If your going to use professional software, use professional hardware". These trolls have to still learn that the video game industry is a bigger industry than the film industry, so on that note ignore those relaying this same message.

How the video game industry became bigger than movies and music | Daily Ticker - Yahoo Finance

I would also like to mention that they aren't professional them selves due to their attitude towards the next generation of film makers who are still learning.

F.R.A.P.S, Bandicam, OBS, Xsplit and every other one does not support constant frame rate, All these software titles are used by bigger video game companies than film companies. They have a frame rate lock facility but if it the game goes below that locked frame then its not constant anymore. this can happen by simply pausing or loading something in the games.

I record all my games using Bandicam as i find it the best one for 2550x1660 @60fps video game recording (Pc gamers are master race for a reason ). i have found a work around and you just have to re encode all your video with "Handbrake", Handbrake allows you to select the target FPS the recording was supposed to be at and change it from variable to constant whilst syncing all you audio. It works perfect because i record my voice over using a separate program and it even syncs with that .

i am going to go back to using my amateur 3DS Max and Unreal 4 and hope this game makes more money than the last one.;)

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Sgtsmokey,

Sgtsmokey wrote:

So many trolls on here saying the same thing "If your going to use professional software, use professional hardware". These trolls have to still learn that the video game industry is a bigger industry than the film industry, so on that note ignore those relaying this same message.

How the video game industry became bigger than movies and music | Daily Ticker - Yahoo Finance

I agree that the "old guard" has trouble with understanding how huge the gaming industry is. I'm continually surprised myself but open minded on how we at Adobe can assist gamers looking to share their gaming experiences via YouTube and other video sharing sites.

Sgtsmokey wrote:

I would also like to mention that they aren't professional them selves due to their attitude towards the next generation of film makers who are still learning.

Agree but there has to be a balance from gamers on understanding how things work, why they might not sometimes work, and how to find a way to make things work. I find that some people in this realm aren't very patient and want everything work the way they expect them to, and when they don't - they get upset. That's that's why you get certain reactions from established editors.

Software companies can react to the needs of a community (like gamers), but it does take a certain amount of action on the behalf of those communities to let software teams know via feature requests. File one here: http://adobe.ly/feature_request

Venting on forum posts like this might provide some relief, but the real fire power lies in feature requests.

Sgtsmokey wrote:

i have found a work around and you just have to re encode all your video with "Handbrake", Handbrake allows you to select the target FPS the recording was supposed to be at and change it from variable to constant whilst syncing all you audio. It works perfect because i record my voice over using a separate program and it even syncs with that .

That's the suggestion I usually make too. A lot of gamers do not like to take this extra step, as it takes time. I fully understand that.

Sgtsmokey wrote:

i am going to go back to using my amateur 3DS Max and Unreal 4 and hope this game makes more money than the last one.;)

Good luck on that!

Kevin

[Guest]

OK, this probably won't work for most cases but it works for me:

1. Make a new After Effects project and put clip with variable frame rate in the timeline.
2. Save that AE project file!
3. Import that AE project file into Premiere (at this point framerate should be OK).
4. Optional if audio is still out of sync: import audio track from the original video and use that as your sound source for the video from the AE project import.

Like I said, results may vary but fixes issues most of the time for me.

[SpeyerOutlook]

I am also disappointed that Adobe does not recognize the middle tier market of video professionals that make their living using semi professional and non-professional equipment such as the ipad air for multi media (video / gaming / live streaming etc) - our client base utilizes most of our production on YouTube and other online environments including web sites, etc. and 80% of our work does not require professional video equipment - so why lug it along? I too am a very long time Adobe customer going back into the late 80's. I've used Premiere since the 2nd edition. If Adobe wants to only compete in the Avid production market, that's their choice but I don't understand the mentality of Adobe not to address (fix) this issue. I will be speaking to VegasPro tomorrow and most likely will have to switch over. Using Handbrake to convert from variable to constant frame rate more than doubles our production time - Adobe please do something about this.

[jasonvp]

SpeyerOutlook wrote:

Using Handbrake to convert from variable to constant frame rate more than doubles our production time - Adobe please do something about this.

I agree that the conversion is not ideal, and I've already done something constructive about it: I've put in a feature request with Adobe to better support VFR.  One of Kevin's recent posts has the link; the best thing you can do if you want Adobe to hear your voice is to put a request in there.  While venting here in the User-to-User forum may be a catharsis, it won't get the same attention that a bunch of feature requests will.  Like any company, Adobe has limited resources to drive the development of Pr.  Therefore, they have to prioritize new features appropriately.  It makes sense for them to focus on new features that more customers want.

Threatening to run to a different NLE here on the forums isn't going to get their attention.  Putting the request in will.

[cc_merchant]

First is to focus on solving all the bugs and improving stability. Only then:

It makes sense for them to focus on new features

[Guest]

cc_merchant kirjoitti:

First is to focus on solving all the bugs and improving stability. Only then:

It makes sense for them to focus on new features

Yes, but it seems to be more like a bug since most Adobe products aimed at the video production process actually CAN handle VBR without the problems that Premiere has.

[boogagiga]

I literally just made an account to reply to this thread. Thank you everyone for keeping it alive.

To everyone arguing that VFR video is not professional, and that PP should not necessarily make it a priority to support it:

Do you consider Seinfeld to be a professional-grade production?

Well, episode 21 of season 5 (aired in May of 1994, 21 years ago) has footage of Kramer on Regis and Kathie Lee for his coffee table book. The show runs at 23.976 fps while the short segment of Kramer on TV runs at 29.97. I literally cannot process this episode of Seinfeld without manually fixing the syncing issues...

How exactly is this acceptable? (or unprofessional, for that matter)

[Jim_Simon]

There's a difference between variable frame rates and mixed frame rates.  Your example is the latter, and it happens on occasion in professional circles.  This thread is about the former, which happens pretty much never in professional production.

[R Neil Haugen]

You're right, Jim, as far as boogagiga's comments go.

And ... you're right as far as historical paradigms go, re: vfr and professional work.

However, since the trip to NAB last year, I've become aware of a LARGE segment of editors who make a dandy living from editing ... and as the only source of income and for quite a few of them, rather more significant than mine! ... who do web work and some is gaming and some isn't, but ... it's all vfr capture. At NAB there was a figure in several places that currently several thousand people make their living editing vfr footage.

Telling someone who makes three times what I do for editing that HIS work isn't really truly "professional" like mine is ... am I the only one thinking that is very shaky theological ground? When I do things that are seen only by a few client and he's got a watching audience of a million or so simultaneous at times?

It's like insisting that EVERYONE must go to a formal accredited "University" to become Educated. Well, these days ... that's getting to be a really stuupid idea, for many things. With our modern tools for sharing knowledge ... even testing on knowledge ... for many fields the main thing that "University" seems to do is give people massive debt to keep some professors in Chivas. Or, well, really, administrators ... 

Neil

[boogagiga]

Jim,

That is correct, it is technically CFR for all the reshown TV footage and the show's camera's footage, separately. However, that makes no difference toward the end result, which is that there is no simple way to import such a file into PP.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there is an episode similar the one described in my previous post that goes back and forth between 29.97 and 23.976 fps footage 30 times throughout the video file, you would have to split all of these into sections and treat them as separate, CFR video clips, for PP to play nice with them.

If that's correct, then my question becomes, do you think that expecting the user to perform this time consuming task is acceptable?

[Snarky_McSnarkster]

maybe i'm just dense, but i would like to see a single video file that changes

its frame rate back and forth between 29.97 and 23.976 30 times during playback

having never seen such a thing, i am unconvinced that it exists

hypothetical don't count

post one for others to download

hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

[boogagiga]

Ummmmmm,

How about a documentary with a lot of historical footage? Pretty sure that would do it...

[Snarky_McSnarkster]

ummmm

how about    mixing frame rates of different media into the editorial

of a single program is not the same as having an edited, final, encoded

single video file of that program that...

"goes back and forth between 29.97 and 23.976 fps footage 30 times throughout the video file"

find or create one and post it here and i will maybe

believe you know what you're talking about

hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

[boogagiga]

Referencing material from your first scenario is problematic.

While it may be easy to string together multiple clips (with different frame rates) together, if one studio wants to reference footage from another studio that has edited/encoded their own mixed frame rate video, but can't get the source materials, they would have to work with mixed frame rate video that has already been encoded into one video file. That is exactly the problem we've all been talking about.

For example, one documentary referencing another documentary (that may very well have mixed frame rates), which does happen for numerous reasons. (discounting the other documentary's credibility, providing background information to the viewer, whatever other reason you want to think of)

Oh yea, you do know that your posting history is visible to other people, right troll? Good day...

[Snarky_McSnarkster]

an indecipherable string of uninformed blather about mixing frame rates

has nothing to do with variable frame rate media, which is the subject

of this thread (see post 130)

you have not gone very far in convincing me you know what you're talking about

hahahahahahahablahblahhahahahaha!!!

[Jim_Simon]

Correct me if I'm wrong

OK.

While the source footage may well be at different frame rates, the final file that is broadcast is only one frame rate, because at the time Seinfeld was filmed, there was only one broadcast spec.

But even today where there are multiple broadcast specs, you will find any one program broadcast at only one frame rate.  The mixing of various frame rates happens in post production, and they're spit out as a file with only one frame rate.

In other words, in professional film and video production, any given file has only one constant frame rate.

[R Neil Haugen]

Jim ... problem is, in one particular genre of 'professional film and video production' any file has only one constant frame rate. There are now other genres of professional video production where nearly all media is VFR. You and I don't deal with it ... but as noted above, I'm not going to tell a few thousand people each making several times a year off editing what I make what "professional" media practices are. First, it's just silly beyond belief, and second, it's so insulting to anyone's intelligence (to me) as to be the blather of an old fool. Well, I'm not as young as a lot of people these days ... but I don't choose to be a fool if I can help it.

Point is, a LOT of video production done very professionally these days is built around VFR material. Both for canned and for live broadcast (albeit frequently that's streaming of course). My 16 year old son shows us international gaming competitions where tournaments are staged with one team in Korea, challenging team in Australia or Taiwan for instance, in studio setups with cams moving on dollys showing each of say the 5 person teams at work and blending forth & back between the "game board" and live-action of the people of the two teams, complete with play-by-play & color commentators. Winning team or individual players may be making more than $350,000 USD for the game. That's more than a lot of pro-bowling tournaments pay ... and the coverage of that on ABC or ESPN has always been considered "professional". The production companies filming these are full-time organizations with folks who can do their job hot & fast and RIGHT ... they don't have re-do possibles, of course. And the technical challenges they face are impressive.

They're mixing both VFR and CFR stuff & sound from multiple continents ... live. Most of the gaming footage they use is VFR, and the camera-shot footage CFR. I've watched the BTS clips and YouTube's of the shows being made. Heard them talking of the gear & software being used, various codecs, problems with dealing with "blending" things from internet streaming ... that's a complicated model to shoot. Makes my "professional" work seem rather ... amateurish ... sigh ...

Neil

[Peter R Mervis]

Thanks Neil!  Very well stated.  The state of our business is rapidly changing and we must keep up!

As a professional tv director/producer (and editor when necessary) creating and pitching shows, I know companies are not spending as much money these days funding multiple location days for sizzle reels.  Instead, they expect a lot to be done via Skype recorded video.  This has to be mixed in with the "professionally" shot material.  Whatever you may think of this practice (and similar ones) and the philosophy behind it, it is the fact of what's happening at a production company level and network level.  In other words...at a professional level. 

We, as content creators, need our professional tools to keep up with what the professional environment is requiring of us.  I LOVE Premiere until I come up against something quirky like my Skype video being extremely out of sync.  When I have to use large amounts of this footage, this "quirk" costs me a large amount of time.  Even if I could just take a bit of time converting with Media Encoder I would be satisfied.  No dice.

Adobe, please help us professionals deal with this poor source material in Premiere and stick with your products!

Peter

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Peter,

peter mervis wrote:

Adobe, please help us professionals deal with this poor source material in Premiere and stick with your products!

Peter

I am advocating for this feature, but please add your voice by making a feature request here: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

Thanks,

Kevin

[jasonvp]

R. Neil Haugen wrote:

Telling someone who makes three times what I do for editing that HIS work isn't really truly "professional" like mine is ... am I the only one thinking that is very shaky theological ground? When I do things that are seen only by a few client and he's got a watching audience of a million or so simultaneous at times?

In reality, the only difference between amateur and professional is: an professional gets paid for what he or she does.  So I agree w/Neil completely.  Some of these guys will make more in one year than anyone else here will make in their lifetime.  Love it or hate it, it's a reality.

[HarleyTDavis]

Hey.

VFR could be compared to the old classroom projector, but in reality, it's also a fact of the old analogue film industry (most mechanical projections or reels were not perfect), and is still a fact of digital with OIS in some cameras.

Adobe has played it cheap on the system requirements with the philosophy of the editor, targeting the sequence playback rather than original video, where most other editors can work at the subframe level and have greater requirements for that feature, as well as the philosophy of "cutting the original reel".  Adobe allows for using the original and using preview proxies, but it's philosophy is to essentially use a copy, and use a list of xml instructions when it comes time to render out, using the original to produce the output.  This has allowed more editors to utilize the software.  So the "don't use toy hardware" comment doesn't fit.  "Prepare your input for processing and get wonderful output" would be more accurate.

Let's go Beyond the sarcasm....  Maybe I can help you.  Check the following:

I've used AME to "Decompress" my input, and I always turn on "Frame Blending".  This will account for a dropped frame or two from OIS or the "I bumped it hard" problem that occurs causing some skip (this happens with professional cameras and tripods, too)... ...With that last one being a mess either way.  You can also do this, Identify the affected area in the video, and edit mark it.  Find the number of frames and the timecode area.  Put the original file into after effects, clip out all but that timecode area, shrink it to the right frame rate without interpreting, which will shorten it in seconds, then use twixtor to stretch it properly, and clean it up.  Replace the clip in your sequence with the After Effects comp.  Either way, start with AME and decompress.  It will retain the quality of the video for your output a lot better, and a lot faster than trying to decompress and recompress with an edit in the middle, all in one output operation.  It's easier on your system resources too.  Plus, if you wish, you can create both your BIG QUALITY file, and a PROXY file at the same time.

For me, Disc output is still a must for many projects and jobs, and while I use AME for blowing up my input and preparing it, I use Compressor for a lot of output.  I work mobile, and then process that out to a large format file, and finally, send that to compressor, and have it FARM the compression, since that often takes the longest and AME usually gives me larger files with less quality in that respect... ...No offense intended.  I have 6 computers with Compressor at a studio.  I place my output file on a shared drive, and have compressor run on all of them to shrink it down.  300gb to around 10 in about an hour.  And when I want to place it on youtube, it's even better, as it really does well to stay within the bit rates I set.

[edscookies]

i found a workaround that may work for some.  I did not notice the sync issues until I had exported my clips via media encoder, and then lost the originals.

some credit goes to https://forums.geforce.com/member/1884889/ for pointing me in the right direction to look to using the goPro editing software.

i first downloaded the goPro editing software (free) http://shop.gopro.com/softwareandapp/gopro-studio/GoPro-Studio.html

(the conversion process is much faster compared to handbrake, could not get that to work for me)

i imported my bad videos, then, under advanced setting, I set the frame rate to 30 fps, changed the file format to .mov, and added the files to the que. After they were done, I imported the files into premiere,  I then reinterpreted each clip to 29.97 and added each to a sequence. I then then unlinked the audio/video from the clip,  imported the original unsynced video, then took just the audio from the unsynced video and dropped that onto the timeline and it matched perfectly. lesson learned. hope this helps someone.