Variable frame rate video with Premiere Pro

[rmshro0]

Variable frame rate video comes from many places these days: phones, live streamed video recordings.

Adobe Premiere is a supposedly production level piece of software that cost a good chunk of change.

How is it 2012 and Adobe does not still have an answer to this problem?  After trying to editing/convert/mux/edit variable frame rate videos for the past 5 hours I am just exhausted.  No amount of conversion apps, etc have saved us and THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TOO.

We have spent thousands on Adobe software packages over the last decade, probably 10s of thousands, and the only answer I find consistently is to switch to Vegas.

Surely, SURELY someone at Adobe with real insight into the issue can help answer the question of whether users moving into different medium should find a place elsewhere in the software ecosystem...

Message was edited by: Kevin Monahan

Reason: to make article more searchable

Title changed.

[shooternz]

Ah ha...I get it.

...played back inside Premiere CS6 the file drifts out of sync so at the end of a 2 hour clip, we are talking more than a full second or so.

Is that the only issue?

[rmshro0]

shooternz wrote:

Ah ha...I get it.

...played back inside Premiere CS6 the file drifts out of sync so at the end of a 2 hour clip, we are talking more than a full second or so.

Is that the only issue?

Correct!

[shooternz]

I wonder what would happen if you tried "Interpret Footage" - Speed -  function on the clip.

[rmshro0]

I have tried that.  I can 'massage' the out of sync issues a bit but it still goes one way or the other.  Mapping a variable frame rate to a static one just continues to cause problems.

[excited_Genie16B8]

They are only tools....and choosing the right one for the job would be seemingly logical and productive.

That was the point I was making.  Well said.

[John T Smith]

rmshro0 wrote:

That is indeed one of the fixes we have tried in the past, but on this particular instance the simple transcode (which is what the Quicktime Saving thing actually does) didn't fix it.

Well, if Apple's own Quicktime can't make the file work, I don't think Adobe can do anything to fix what is, after all, an Apple product

[rmshro0]

John T Smith wrote:

rmshro0 wrote:

That is indeed one of the fixes we have tried in the past, but on this particular instance the simple transcode (which is what the Quicktime Saving thing actually does) didn't fix it.

Well, if Apple's own Quicktime can't make the file work, I don't think Adobe can do anything to fix what is, after all, an Apple product

Actually the files we are trying to edit come from Xsplit, not anything Apple. 

[Greg Baber]

If you want an idea of how the feature request system works - take a look here.  http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2012/12/top-feature-requests-for-after-effects-in-2012.html

It is for After Effects but the only difference is that Todd posted the work that he does on his blog.  The same sort of process happens with Premiere Pro.

[Stan Jones]

It is for After Effects but the only difference is that Todd posted the work that he does on his blog.  The same sort of process happens with Premiere Pro.

Yes, and we'd love to see one for Premiere Pro!

[MrLevy]

I can't believe as a "MVP" member of this forum that you could be as so ignorant to the importance of live streaming productions and in particularly (for which is the most common scenario for the OP's question) the video gaming industry. Video games are a mulit-BILLION dollar industry and generates an INSTANT user base for streamers and YouTubers WAY faster than any indie "film" production (all marketing aside). And to say video from any source is not worthy to be used unless it's from a "REAL" camera.. well you sir are then NO artist.. and are not helping the creative process. Great movies have been made with JUST iphones and ipads... if you don't belive go to some indie feastivals or simply YouTube it. People can do amazing things with the little they have, and the mentallity that "OH well you just need to spend more money on machinery to be worth a damn" is utter BS. I know this post is old but I was SOOOO fercious when I read it and how a "MVP" responded and no one said anything that I will say something now.

Adobe should have a solution or atleast a basic workflow implementation for variable frame rates. No ifs or buts about it.

[offensive personal insult removed]

[Jeff Bellune]

Just because you are angry does not give you the right to violate forum rules by insulting other users and/or using offensive language.  Please keep it civil and G-rated.

Jeff

[MrLevy]

As a big board owner myself I say what is ethically appropriate and what is not is subjective to all and different for every forum. If moderators here do no stand up for their members with legitimate concerns who are snobbishly abused by other members then Adobe PR is not doing a good job concerning this forum.

It's easy to notice that I had no personal involvement in this thread up until now and next to no other activity in this forum should suggest a very clear picture that there is something very wrong with the situation. But thank you for addressing the issue with whom I had a complaint with as I see his reply he made suggesting that adobe doesn't care about "teenagers" was deleted. It is incredibly ignorant for someone to say video gaming is only limited to teenagers. As any market research will show that the assumption/statement is entirely incorrect. Let alone saying that Adobe products "should not support" variable frame rates on imported files instead of offering viable workaround solutions to the OP.

To the OP and others with the same issue.

If you are dealing with variable frame rates in FLV files (typical stream format of live streaming services) you can save your streamed files locally and use a program called FLV_Extract which will extract 3 files (audio, video, and log) from your FLVs.. from there you can use Yamb (make sure to download MP4Box as well and place in the correct Yamb subdir) to combine the FLV contents into an Adobe supported MP4 or alternative with NO transcoding. This will ensure that you don't loss any data or suffer any quality loss (keep in mind you may still loss quality for final render). If there's is audio synce issues and you are using only cuts of the whole stream then simply unllink the audio from the video and slide the audio left or right to adjust for the sync issue. If you wish to use the whole stream and audio lag fluxuates then it will be very hard to adjust but is still possible.

From whta I notice using Quicktime Pro to render out a a CFR version not only degrades quality from re-encoding BUT tends to waste a ton of resources (CPU time) and that time can be better spent in your project timeline and final render.

So with live streams, when there's a huge frame rate drops (imo over 5 frames up to 8 is moderate but 10 or over is very notice-able) I just don't use those areas and slide my audio track back into sync. It's not perfect... but atleast there's no transcoding for import and at least some of the stream is still use-able.

Good luck!

[videaha]

I came here just to say a big thank you to Levyimage, for providing the only genuinely useful comment in this thread reply to the OP. Amazing that it's only taken 4 months to get to this point. Thankfully, my client has spent that long dithering so now I can hopefully actually deliver. Cheers!

[kairosmatt]

Just curious:

If it works in Vegas, couldn't you just render it out from there as an uncompressed AVI with a fixed frame rate? Or use some other lossless codec that works in both programs? The only lossy parts would be when Vegas gets to parts where the framerate varies and it need to make new frames to match the render framerate, but using a good enough codec you should not see many issues. You could also play with turning resample on and off too.

kairosmatt

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hello LevyImage,

Adobe should have a solution or atleast a basic workflow implementation for variable frame rates. No ifs or buts about it.

Old post, but worth noting.

If you are shooting video with mobile phones, do not generate variable frame rate footage to begin with. Do not use the native camera. Use an app like Filmic Pro which can give you constant frame rates at certain data rates and clip duration. That's what I've been using to great success.

If you are editing screen captured footage, the only workaround we have right now is to transcode. Sorry.

I know this is a major issue, so please file feature requests so that our product team will hear about this pain point directly, not just from the support organization.

I apologize that one or two of our MVPs continue to hold onto the weird fact that variable frame rate footage is not "pro" or viable to use in a project when that's all that's been furnished to you.

Please do your best to ignore those that continue to peddle this fallacy and file that feature request. Thanks for understanding.

Regards,
Kevin

[Garrett C]

I didn't see the option on the non-native app I tried, do you know what Android apps allow that degree of manual control? Filmic is on Android but the reviews concern me.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Garrett C,

Hey there, thanks so much for your response and interest.

I didn't see the option on the non-native app I tried...

In my experience, I've found it's because most of the apps out there are fairly cheap copies of the SDK with a few small features. Filmic Pro is one of the main apps on the iPhone that are being used in the pro realm. As I understand it, there are others.

I found that some of the more film oriented apps like Filmic Pro have a good number of options for frame rate, frame size and bit rate.

I did tests on my own and came up with the following conclusion: not bad! I just came back from Europe with a lion's share of the footage completely usable directly in Premiere Pro. I did create proxies to edit with, but the encoded result is excellent.

That said, even Filmic Pro has its breaking point; it will begin generating variable frame rates "if stressed" (meaning shooting longer clips at higher bit rates and larger frame sizes).

do you know what Android apps allow that degree of manual control? Filmic is on Android but the reviews concern me.

I can only give you my personal experience with the iPhone. Sorry. I'd say, it's worth a gamble at ten bucks.

Regards,
Kevin

[R Neil Haugen]

After talking with Kevin, I installed Filmic on my Samsung S7, and have been quite pleased. It does allow good choices and the media produced is a bit better than the S7 "standard" media.

Recommended.

Neil

[Garrett C]

Oh does that render video PP is compatible with? I was looking at Open Camera and I got seventeen minutes of compatible footage with it, but that's less than half other videos I've had issues with.

[R Neil Haugen]

Yes, I've used my Filmic outputs directly in PrPro. You can set things in the controls for Filmic, do that and you should be ok.

Neil

[Garrett C]

Sigh, Open Camera did not cut it, but when I looked up Filmic to buy it I found this app Cinema FV-5 that specifically primps about PP "The footage captured with Cinema FV-5 can be easily edited on any NLE like Apple Final Cut Pro, Adobe Premiere, Sony Vegas or DaVinci Resolve."

I will attempt it tomorrow in my next session, I would be pretty thrilled if this were the case.

[Stan Jones]

Lots of variables.

R Neil HaugenAfter talking with Kevin, I installed Filmic on my Samsung S7, and have been quite pleased. It does allow good choices and the media produced is a bit better than the S7 "standard" media.

Does media info show your file as CFR?

S7 Edge, Filmic appeared to be working fine, HOWEVER. I cannot get it to lock CFR. I tried a lot of settings. I am still testing. Here is the response from Filmic support.

Thank you for writing in. This is not an uncommon experience for smartphone footage, especially on Android. Android imaging frameworks typically prioritize several attributes above frame rate when recording video. Exposure is usually #1 and focus is usually #2, from there it's things like bit rate consumption, color saturation etc.. Frame rate adherence is quite a bit down the priority list and as a result the frame rates will almost never be exactly what the desire frame rate is. The Samsung S7 and other newer devices do very well. If you try a clip on say an LG G3 you may see frame rates of 17 when the request was 24.

To get around this most professionals will use a transcoder such as Handbrake (www.handbrake.fr) to conform their footage before dropping it into an editor. We also love Kinemaster for this... their editor will conform a clip to an exact frame rate on export.

So even with manual exposure and focus, lowest demands on all variables, I get VFR.

FYI, I lost the link and did not confirm the information, but not all S7's use the Sony camera. I plan to check with the Samsung tech guys to get more info on hardware and OS version.

Camera FV-5 is the newer version of Cinema FV-5. Locked my phone up. Known issue that appeared to have been fixed, but not for me.

[R Neil Haugen]

I've used a number of clips from my S7 in PrPro without issue. So I didn't bother to run them through Media Info to see whether they really are CFR or not, I will check that tomorrow in the studio.

24fps and 30fps are the only two non-asterisked options, and I've just used the 30, don't think I've even tried the 24. Maybe I'll shoot a clip at 24 and see what MediaInfo says, along with 'looking' at a few of the 30fps clips.

Neil

[R Neil Haugen]

Actually, just tried some of my 4k Filmic 30fps in PrPro 2017 on my old Lenovo i5 laptop, ancient, with integrated HD graphics (really old ... ). While basic playback stuttered a bit, at first, after it got everything sorted, it played and tracked audio perfectly on a four minute clip. Also made proxies, working great.

The info line for frame-rate on the Filmic stuff says 30.1, interesting that. Checked in MediaInfo, and yes, it is showing as variable frame rate. But on my old laptop, it's playing it accurately. Huh.

Neil

[Stan Jones]

Thanks for the info. I'll try to do some more tests with the result in PR.