Anonymous, heavy-handed host...

[Phos_four_dots]

...do you have the stones to reveal yourself, and your motivation for removing the "Three Cheers for the Wenches" thread? And why you allowed the "Three Cheers for the Wrenches" thread to remain?

I got figh dollah says you don't. Or even if you do, that your reasoning is sound.

[Kath-H]

Do you mean the post that was throwing up a password request? That was in another thread and is fixed (thanks Zeno).

[Chris Cox]

Kath - nope, I mean stuff specific to the wenches thread.

[Kath-H]

Ah, OK. Haven't visited it for a long time.

[Guest]

[Image removed}

you mean stuff like this that's been there since day 1 of these forums, reported and commented as "OK" by john?

http://forums.adobe.com/people/SnakeSK

at least in the wenches thread you pretty much know NOT to click on it from work where a passing boss might be more than a little upset to see something like the above on your screen.

[Guest]

Very nice Dave.  A photo of an attractive lady wearing a teeshirt featuring the brand of software that produces the finest photo editing program, on an apparently cool summer day.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  THANK YOU.

[Guest]

no you miss the point q. that's in some guy's profile. i clicked that one day at work to see who i was talking to and got that lovely pic. lovely, but not really appropriate for work.

[~graffiti]

dave milbut wrote:

lovely, but not really appropriate for work.

And probably far more risque than most everything in the thread in question.

[Guest]

Dave,

I understand what you are saying, Still a nice photo though.  And certainly isn't obscene.

~graffiti,

I agree.

[Guest]

cool. just wanted to make that clear. what graff said. if it was one image that was a problem, that one should have been pulled. not the whole thread.

[adobe-admin]

Ramón G Castañeda wrote:

You must realize, Zeno, that you ceased to be "one of us" the instant you acquired "mod" or host powers.

Now the Gandhi quote is fully applicable to you too.

Why should this be only about employees/customers? Why shouldn't all people treat each other with respect?

If some of the forum regulars showed more consideration to others it would change the entire tone greatly. Go out and set the example of how you want others to be treated. I think that will go further than showing a quote.

John

[Phillip M Jones]

Thanks At Last!

[Ramón G Castañeda]

adobe-admin wrote:

Go out and set the example of how you want others to be treated.

John

John,

That is part of my message.  I have no trouble admitting that I react (perhaps over-react) when attacked, confronted, baited or insulted—and a good case could be made that I shouldn't. But that's a different argument.

For Adobe staff (e.g. J. Nack) or Adobe associates (e.g. DK and/or Z. Bokor) to view Adobe customers as mere adversaries in an Internet game is the problem.  You hadn't done it, Neil Keller never did, nor did Ozpeter and Ian Lyons.  Hewitt did, on occasion.

In a way, you are hinting at it now, when you imply that treating customers as such is optional or conditional.

In the spercific instance of Zeno Bokor, his insolence, impudence, arrogance and confrontational attitude shows spontaneously, without provocation even when he's not being addressed or part of the discussion at all.

Not that I'm blaming the three aforementioned individuals for every ill that afflicts the forum.  Nor is the problem restricted to the forum.  It's a pervasive malaise that pervades the whole Adobe bureaucracy as far as the public can see, and it affects customer service and program development.

[Ramón G Castañeda]

Why should this be only about employees/customers?

John

Because there is a customer relationship here.  We're not adversaries in some Internet game.

Thank you for highlighting the exact attitude I was referencing.

[Guest]

there's a tendency to forget that we as "helpers" here are really customers... in fact "super"-customers as we go out of our way to advocate for adobe and to help adobe solve it's problems (or others' problems with adobe software). that fact may breed a certain familiarity that causes some to treat "us" regulars as more part of the team than might otherwise be proper in a normal business/customer relationship, including letting tempers flare when appropriate (or not).

i think what several of us have been getting at is that it behooves adboe people and other "sanctioned" representatives to go above and beyond when dealing with the public. and that includes us "super"-users. maybe especially us.

instead of glossing over the quote with a 'yea, yea'. maybe some adobe people and reps need to read it and fully understand it before things go really wrong. maybe someone should forward it up the chain of command to publish in the company newsletter or something.

"A customer is the most important visitor on our premises.

He is not dependent on us.

We are dependent on him.

He is not an interruption of our work.

He is the purpose of it.

He is not an outsider of our business.

He is part of it.

We are not doing him a favour by serving him.

He is doing us a favour by giving us the opportunity to do so."

-Mahatma Gandhi, South Africa, 1890

[~graffiti]

Well said dave.

I think that Adobe could take a lesson from Quark at this point. Other than having crap for software to begin with, wasn't it a similar situation for them when they started going downhill?

[Ramón G Castañeda]

~graffiti wrote:

I think that Adobe could take a lesson from Quark at this point. Other than having crap for software to begin with, wasn't it a similar situation for them when they started going downhill?

Well, Graf, that's why I wrote above:

Nor is the problem restricted to the forum.  It's a pervasive malaise that pervades the whole Adobe bureaucracy as far as the public can see, and it affects customer service and program development.

Note for instance the reaction by some Adobe managers to the many complaints about the Adjustments Panel in Photoshop, or to whatever criticism anyone dares to post in JN's blog.

[Guest]

In the spercific instance of Zeno Bokor, his insolence, impudence, arrogance and confrontational attitude shows spontaneously, without provocation even when he's not being addressed or part of the discussion at all.

I must have missed that bit!

For me the only thing that's annoying about Zeno is that he's so damned quick to come up with the correct answer.

Still, giving him mod duties has slowed him down a bit.  

[Ramón G Castañeda]

John Joslin wrote:

Still, giving him mod duties has slowed him down a bit.

The purpose is not—and should not be—to slow anyone down, or to muzzle anybody, just to remind the person that now that he has mod powers he's bound by the customer relationship that exists with Adobe and the forum users.

[Ramón G Castañeda]

John Joslin wrote:

For me the only thing that's annoying about Zeno…

Hey, he's nowhere as annoying as you used to be in the old times before I plonked you, JJ.

[Guest]

I did my best. 

[Guest]

Well in my opinion Zeno is taking us back to the Nanny state which caused the uprising that created the lounge. I was not off topic I was giving out free points in the Photoshop forum. My post even mentioned Photoshop.

[Guest]

That is disgusting.

[Claudio González]

Buko. wrote:

Well in my opinion Zeno is taking us back to the Nanny state which caused the uprising that created the lounge. I was not off topic I was giving out free points in the Photoshop forum. My post even mentioned Photoshop.

I may be misunderstanding you, Buko, because of my limited knowledge of the English language, but as I see things, you have been offering free points in this forum. And in more than one thread. So maybe, just maybe, Zeno is not the alone in taking us back to nanny state -if he is. And this is not the Lounge, although some/many are acting as if it were.

[JayJhabrix]

Unless i'm wrong, Version 2 of the "Free Points! Get your free Points!! Free points!" thread seems to have been removed.

[Claudio González]

JayJhabrix wrote:

Unless i'm wrong, Version 2 of the "Free Points! Get your free Points!! Free points!" thread seems to have been removed.

And very justly; we have one too many as it is.