Jochem van Dieten Must Be Relieve of His Moderator Status (Mark II)

[Fr__Watson]

The first thread on this matter seems to have been deleted, presumeably by Mr. van Dieten

It is my assertion that Jochem van Dieten has abused his moderator's priveledges by innappropriately deleting threads and posts with which he does not agree. He has been rude not only to some of the more 'curmudgeonly' forum members, but also to those whom are not troublesome (Claudio, 'GreenJumpyOne' are two that spring to mind). He has been arbitrary-seeming in many of his decisions as moderator; he has shown himself hostile, uncooperative and on occasion childish. He has not, seemingly, been held to account for his reprehensible, unprofessional conduct, and is (IMO) a disgrace to Adobe Corp. He has no 'people skills' and is thus an exceptionally bad choice for the position of moderator.

If you agree, please say so. If possible, give some examples of Mr. van Dieten's behaviour which illustrate my assertions above.

I am posting this partly to give people who wish to have a venue to complain about censorship (and other) issues may do so without taking up more space in another thread.

[Captiv8r]

So I'm curious

Most of you claim there is no real content to be had here any longer. No good answers. No reason worth visiting. All the "real" experts have left the building, so to speak.

Why do you waste your time here if your "other place" is so darn much better? Why even waste your keystrokes here? Why even bother visiting? After all, it's all managed by nothing more than a million monkeys that have nary a clue anyway, no?

You can call me Curious George if it makes you feel better. Perhaps Curious George with an idiot's grin.

I'm happy Jivin it up with my Adobe software. Rick

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

After all, it's all managed by nothing more than a million monkeys that have nary a clue anyway, no?

Well you got that nearly right — except that I wasn't aware that Adobe had appointed a million of their so-called "Community Experts"!

Now clean up this appalling self-satisfied "attitude" that you all seem to share and we might be getting somewhere — and you might begin to earn the first glimmer of our respect which, so far, has totally eluded you.

[Captiv8r]

Ann Shelbourne wrote:

Well you got that nearly right — except that I wasn't aware that Adobe had appointed a million of their so-called "Community Experts"!

Now clean up this appalling self-satisfied "attitude" that you all seem to share and we might be getting somewhere — and you might begin to earn the first glimmer of our respect which, so far, has totally eluded you.

I've traversed enough trips around the sun to know that perception is reality. As such, if that is your perception, what would be the point of my trying to "earn your respect"? As I don't feel I've personally done anything to deserve the feelings you share about anyone bearing a (thinking here... you referred to it as a "So called") Community Expert status, it would seem that the work involved in obtaining said status eludes you.

The only "attitude" I attempt to portray is an "attitude of gratitude". I'm grateful that our gracious hosts Adobe have provided the community with a means to help our fellow humans out. I'm grateful that I'm able to help my fellow users solve problems.

So I do offer my apologies. I don't feel I'm better than anyone else here. I'm simply a vehicle to assist others. I see nothing to "clean up". Unless, of course, you wish for me and others to shed any helpfulness and abandon assisting in the forums to "teach Adobe a lesson". Sorry, I'm not going there. Call it drinking the Kool Aid if you like, but overall I'm happy with the way things work.

Cheers... Rick

[Fr__Watson]

it would seem that the work involved in obtaining said status eludes you.

Oh, do enlighten us all. Please, tell us, just what sorts of things must one do in the "Community Expert" program to qualify as a "Community Expert" in their field. What sorts of tests are given? Is this program open to everyone? How does one apply? Does it cost anything? Why weren't some of the Non-Community experts who have all sorts of points (Mr. Joslin, though he makes nothing of it, seems to have accumulated a fair number of points, as have some others) informed of this "program" so that they might have the opportunity, should they have wished, to have applied for it?  (And, so far as that goes, where are your points listed? I don't see any. It seems that some of the "Community Experts" don't have any such showing.)

Anyway, I'll go back to ignoring you mostly, but if you want to be helpful (as you profess), I am sure others here would like to know the answers to some of my questions.

And so far as the projection attitudes of self-satisfiedness, and so on go?  Well, it seems to me that folks who come across to others as arrogant, superficial, vacous, and so on do not intentionally set out to do so in most cases.

Bye now. Have a happy!

[Curt Wrigley]

The community expert program is explained on the adobe website if you are interested in the details of it.

You don't ask to be one.  You get invited by Adobe after they have observed your contributions over a period of time.  A typical profile of a community expert is someone who has devoted significant energy in supporting the adobe community and has demonstrated their character and expertise.  Many community experts write adobe publications or contribute articles on a regular bases.  Many are ACE certified.   The community experts I know were all significant and helpful contributors to the product forums or their own support web sites prior to being invited to be a CE.  The adobe forums I frequent are all pleasant, helpful and friendly; with the exception of this one (the comments forum).   The hostility here is unique.

[Guest]

Curt Wrigley wrote:

The community expert program is explained on the adobe website if you are interested in the details of it.

You don't ask to be one.  You get invited by Adobe after they have observed your contributions over a period of time.  A typical profile of a community expert is someone who has devoted significant energy in supporting the adobe community and has demonstrated their character and expertise.  Many community experts write adobe publications or contribute articles on a regular bases.  Many are ACE certified.   The community experts I know were all significant and helpful contributors to the product forums or their own support web sites prior to being invited to be a CE.  The adobe forums I frequent are all pleasant, helpful and friendly; with the exception of this one (the comments forum).   The hostility here is unique.

Not complaining as I couldn't care too much less, but technically Adobe should review these things yearly to see if they're still even active.  Another company with a similar program does exactly this (Versant with db4o - and that's just an OSS product!!!)

[Curt Wrigley]

Ansury wrote:

Curt Wrigley wrote:

The community expert program is explained on the adobe website if you are interested in the details of it.

You don't ask to be one.  You get invited by Adobe after they have observed your contributions over a period of time.  A typical profile of a community expert is someone who has devoted significant energy in supporting the adobe community and has demonstrated their character and expertise.  Many community experts write adobe publications or contribute articles on a regular bases.  Many are ACE certified.   The community experts I know were all significant and helpful contributors to the product forums or their own support web sites prior to being invited to be a CE.  The adobe forums I frequent are all pleasant, helpful and friendly; with the exception of this one (the comments forum).   The hostility here is unique.

Not complaining as I couldn't care too much less, but technically Adobe should review these things yearly to see if they're still even active.  Another company with a similar program does exactly this (Versant with db4o - and that's just an OSS product!!!)

I believe they do.  Not all Community experts are forum hosts.  There are other ways CEs help the adobe community.  Community Help, Development, User groups, Tutorial development, Public events are a few.

[Captiv8r]

Fr. Watson wrote:

Oh, do enlighten us all. Please, tell us, just what sorts of things must one do in the "Community Expert" program to qualify as a "Community Expert" in their field. What sorts of tests are given? Is this program open to everyone? How does one apply? Does it cost anything? Why weren't some of the Non-Community experts who have all sorts of points (Mr. Joslin, though he makes nothing of it, seems to have accumulated a fair number of points, as have some others) informed of this "program" so that they might have the opportunity, should they have wished, to have applied for it?  (And, so far as that goes, where are your points listed? I don't see any. It seems that some of the "Community Experts" don't have any such showing.)

Anyway, I'll go back to ignoring you mostly, but if you want to be helpful (as you profess), I am sure others here would like to know the answers to some of my questions.

And so far as the projection attitudes of self-satisfiedness, and so on go?  Well, it seems to me that folks who come across to others as arrogant, superficial, vacous, and so on do not intentionally set out to do so in most cases.

Bye now. Have a happy!

I'm quite happy to Google that for you. Below is the link. Most of what you asked is listed in the ensuing pages.

Click here

As far as my own points go, I had to do some digging because I had no clue where they were listed. Apparently you see them when you hover the Avatar. The image is below:

Thanks, you have a happy too!

[Fr__Watson]

Thank you for the answers; my fault for not doing a simple google myself! <slaps self on forehead>

I also thank you for your continued patience and good humour despite my comments; it's not really yourself that I have issues with, though I have been irritated by some of your comments.

I think I've said most of what I had to say, so I should give this a rest. Thanks & good night.

<img src=http://www.psychic-revelation.com/images/i_ching_11_tai.jpg>

[John_Levine_IOPHFI_INH]

Peace?

Back up 5, or move forward one.

(conflict/standstill, respectively)

"Get 'em outta here, he's a prick!" —Iggy

[John_Levine_IOPHFI_INH]

WOW! Curt has a whole 1,500 posts! I feel so inadequate...

[Phillip_M_Jones]

There are many people with more than a 100 or so post. Its no big deal though.

[John_Levine_IOPHFI_INH]

DUH! Do you know what sarcasm is? I'm pretty sure I have well over 1500 posts, but somehow, my old ID didn't transfer over to this new POS place, even though I did EXACTLY as the Adobe Gods told me, and linked it correctly... Oh well...

[Phillip_M_Jones]

actally between being a frequent contributor on the DreamWeaver Macromedia mine is probably about 500 more than shown. But I don't care.  what was more important was the date. which iabout 1-2 years older than shown. In the scheme of things I won't be losing sleep over other things.

[John_Levine_IOPHFI_INH]

>Now clean up this appalling self-satisfied "attitude" that you all seem to share

OMFG! Coming from you, Ann, that was freakin' hysterical! The PB got a Heineken bath it really didn't need!

[456412]

WHEN I TRANSFORM A IMAGE IT LOST HIS QUALITY WHAT CAN I DO

[Guest]

Talk about hi-jacking a thread.

What software are you using?

PC or a MAC?

Answer these and someone can get you in the right direction.

[Captiv8r]

Hi there

You seem to be lost. Does your question pertain to a specific Adobe software product? If so, you need to ask your question in the appropriate forum. The link below will take you to the main forums page where you might find the forum you need.

Click here

Cheers... Rick

[John_Levine_IOPHFI_INH]

"Captiv8r"

Sorry, I find it hard to take anyone who uses such a childish screen name seriously...

[Claudio_González1]

This message

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2277545#2277545

has been modified after been replied, and also moved down to its present position –something mere users cannot do. And my reply to it, which in my opinion was a not in the least offensive suggestion to improve interpersonal relationships in these forums, was deleted.

I think that these changes completely and unfairly distort what happened in that thread, and therefore I do not consider them proper of a moderator. Also, I find it pitiful that posting this message is the only defense I have left. Message that most probably is going to be very promptly removed.

I was forgetting, but mine wasn't the only reply to the original version of his post to be deleted. And, as it can be seen, I don't hide my modifications to my messages. I even explain why I made them. Cultural differences?

Message was edited by: Claudio González. Reason: adding forgotten information.

[Jochem van Dieten]

Claudio González wrote on 9/28/2009 8:31 PM:

This message

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2277545#2277545

has been modified after been replied

If you check the webservices they tell the following about that message:

<creationDate>2009-09-27T23:54:57.915-06:00</creationDate> <modificationDate>2009-09-27T23:54:57.915-06:00</modificationDate>

So that message has not been changed. In addition, anybody who

subscribes to the email notifications can compare the text of the

original email notification with the text in the thread and see they are

the same. Anybody wants to do the honors?

and also moved down to its present position –something mere users cannot do.

Neither can moderators.

And my reply to it, which in my opinion was a not in the least offensive suggestion to improve interpersonal relationships in these forums, was deleted.

I explicitly ask to stop posting content that is unrelated to the forum

FAQ in that thread, yet a group of people including you continue. What

did you think would happen?

[Ann_Shelbourne1]

I explicitly ask to stop posting content that is unrelated to the forum

FAQ in that thread, yet a group of people including you continue. What

did you think would happen?

It is exactly because of the insufferable attitude displayed in that paragraph, that we are asking Adobe to relieve you of your duties.

[Harbs.]

Anybody wants to do the honors?

Happy to oblige. Here's the whole shebang starting from the clueless

person who starting this whole thing:

From: Claudio González <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 7:43:48 PM GMT+02:00

Curious. This thread seems to have been bumped up again:

http://forums.adobe.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/12289/Sin+t%C3%ADtulo-1.jpg

And I could have sweared that some six hours ago I answered a message almost identical to #137 above, but posted at that time, and without the phrase about the spammer. I even have a Word file with what I thought I had answered –I am now copying my messages to Word prior to posting them, just in case I am logged out in the process.

As my message –a polite suggestion for improving the relationships around here– is not here, no doubt I am imagining things.

From: JhabrixJay <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 6:40:43 PM GMT+02:00

John Joslin wrote:
The +good+ moderators/hosts used to do it.   
Aah... them good ol' days...

From: John Joslin <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 1:14:22 PM GMT+02:00

greenjumpyone wrote:
had a comment been placed in the thread, stating that an OT post had been made and deleted, would have prevented all of these questions!  Do you guys *not* get that?  Communication, especially on a forum, is *essential*.  A one or two line comment can make all the difference.

The +good+ moderators/hosts used to do it. 

From: greenjumpyone <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 1:00:27 PM GMT+02:00

Claudio González wrote:

This New Forum FAQ discussion was bumped up in a way that was not understandable to users, some of which therefore felt justified to ask the reason for this. Now we learn that there was a post removed in this thread, which is an action moderators are entitled to, and therefore there was no reason for hiding it. On the contrary, a short notice like "an off topic/offensive/whatever message by XXX was deleted on September XX by XXX" would not only have been polite for other users of the forum, but also would have helped them to learn the conducts they should avoid. Pity that you don't understand this.

In my opinion, removing this post on the ground that it is off topic in this thread would be a further proof that you don't understand such a simple rule of public relations.
To take Claudio's comment one step further:  had a comment been placed in the thread, stating that an OT post had been made and deleted, would have prevented all of these questions!  Do you guys *not* get that?  Communication, especially on a forum, is *essential*.  A one or two line comment can make all the difference.

From: Claudio González <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 12:54:08 PM GMT+02:00

This New Forum FAQ discussion was bumped up in a way that was not understandable to users, some of which therefore felt justified to ask the reason for this. Now we learn that there was a post removed in this thread, which is an action moderators are entitled to, and therefore there was no reason for hiding it. On the contrary, a short notice like "an off topic/offensive/whatever message by XXX was deleted on September XX by XXX" would not only have been polite for other users of the forum, but also would have helped them to learn the conducts they should avoid. Pity that you don't understand this.

In my opinion, removing this post on the ground that it is off topic in this thread would be a further proof that you don't understand such a simple rule of public relations.

From: John Joslin <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 8:25:02 AM GMT+02:00

then than.

From: Jochem van Dieten <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 7:55:17 AM GMT+02:00

Claudio González wrote on 9/27/2009 10:53 PM:
Yes, there is an implicit question: who bumped this thread up

Some spammer or so.


But I think that if I am rebuked for openly bumping up a thread without adding anything new, others should be also be rebuked for doing the same, even more so if they do it in a hidden way. Or don't you think so?

He got his message deleted before you even posted. So no, I don't see
the need for your request for an action when an even stronger action has
already been taken. And I especially do not see the need to discuss
moderation in a thread about another subject that has nothing to do with
moderation.


So could everybody who is posting about things other then the Forum FAQ
stop using this thread for that.

From: greenjumpyone <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 2:51:42 AM GMT+02:00

From: Claudio González <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 2:02:33 AM GMT+02:00

greenjumpyone wrote:

LOL! 

actually, there were two questions there!

hopper
Hopper, I beg to disagree. It is technically true that there +were+ two questions there, but they were just two questions that you were +quoting+ from a previous message of yours, which isn't the same thing than asking them again. And "I don't recall getting an answer to those questions" is a statement, not a question.

From: greenjumpyone <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 1:27:29 AM GMT+02:00

LOL! 

actually, there were two questions there!

hopper

To post a reply to the thread message, either reply to this email or visit the message page: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2277192#2277192

From: Claudio González <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 1:05:15 AM GMT+02:00

greenjumpyone wrote:

and I had previously asked why the FAQ thread was bumped up.  I asked what changes were made to move it up to the top?  Was it just a bump so it wouldn't fall off the "table" or was there new content quietly added to it?

I don't recall getting an answer to those questions.
Hopper, is there a question there? Or anything related with the FAQs? Or anything new? Or are you just trying to bump this thread up?

From: greenjumpyone <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 28, 2009 12:56:51 AM GMT+02:00

and I had previously asked why the FAQ thread was bumped up.  I asked what changes were made to move it up to the top?  Was it just a bump so it wouldn't fall off the "table" or was there new content quietly added to it?

I don't recall getting an answer to those questions.

From: Claudio González <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 27, 2009 11:53:10 PM GMT+02:00

jochemd wrote:

Is there a question here? Or anything related to the Forum FAQ?
Yes, there is an implicit question: who bumped this thread up and why? If you are not willing to see it in my previous message, or to understand it now that I have written it in full, you have of course the force to delete both of my messages.

To throw a stone and then hide one's hand is considered a very reproachable conduct around here, but I know there are cultural differences between different countries. And also between different people. But I think that if I am rebuked for openly bumping up a thread without adding anything new, others should be also be rebuked for doing the same, even more so if they do it in a hidden way. Or don't you think so?

From: Jochem van Dieten <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 27, 2009 11:28:54 PM GMT+02:00

Is there a question here? Or anything related to the Forum FAQ?

From: Claudio González <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 27, 2009 11:11:32 PM GMT+02:00

Bumping up threads was a usual practice in the old forums since I don't remember when. However, anyone bumping up a thread used to do it openly under his/her screen name, explaining why, and willing to face all the consequences. I have recently had a thread locked, and received a rebuke, unjust in my opinion, for trying to refloat an archived thread, and I could take it. That's why it disconcerts me to see threads suddenly spinging up, out of nowhere, and for no apparent reason.

An impartial law is easy to bear -free translation of the old Spanish saying "ley pareja no es dura".

From: BinLivang <forums@adobe.com>
Date: September 27, 2009 9:13:05 PM GMT+02:00

I purchased Creative suite 4 Design premium student edition for windows week ago, I followed the instruction, however

http://forums.adobe.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/12236/Picture+1.png

when I pressed the link "get your serial number" under NEXT STEPS , I got the message as below,

http://forums.adobe.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/12237/Picture+2.png

where can I get the serial number, pls advise

[Guest]

Wow!

It's like seeing your past life flash before your eyes!

Creeepy!

[Claudio_González1]

This is the beginning of my deleted message in answer to yours in its original position:

This New Forum FAQ discussion was bumped up in a way that was not understandable to users, some of which therefore felt justified to ask the reason for this. Now we learn that there was a post removed in this thread, which is an action moderators are entitled to, and therefore there was no reason for hiding it.

In my opinion, this shows that, even not directly related with the Forum FAQ, my message cannot be considered completely off topic.

As to this,

If you check the webservices they tell the following about that message:

So that message has not been changed. In addition, anybody who

subscribes to the email notifications can compare the text of the

original email notification with the text in the thread and see they are

the same. Anybody wants to do the honors?

I am sorry to say that I don't know how to check the webservices, that apparently you left a phrase out in your message (there is no "following"), and that I am not subscribed to the email notifictions, so that I cannot easily check wheter your message was changed or not. All I can say is that, to the best of my recolection, there was not a single word about "a spammer or so". Although unlikely, it is of course possible that the phrase may have been there all the time and I missed it.

Finally, I apologize for assuming that your message had been purposely moved to the last position on the thread. Now I realize that it simply happened to be left there when you deleted all subsequent posts –I didn't notice at first that mine had not been the only one.