Just in case...

Report · Oct 01, 2009

Just in case anyone from Adobe thinks these forums are getting better, are more accepted now that all the knowledgeable regulars have been driven off and the community that existed has been destroyed. This Forum still su

cks, its slow ugly and a huge space waster. The dialog in the forums has turned into a bunch of lazy people who can't be bothered to read the manual. All discussion about anything technical or advanced just doesn't exist. thanks Adobe.

Report · Oct 01, 2009

Coincidentally I was about to post a similar observation.

The Photoshop (Adobe's flagship product, remember) forums contain little other than installation and licensing questions and, as Buko says, questions like "where do I find the xxxx tool?" or, "my colours are all funny what can I do?"

OR COMPLAINTS ABOUT ADOBE'S ATROCIOUS CUSTOMER SUPPORT.

Any valuable discussions or educational answers, such as there used to be on a regular basis are virtually non-existent.

But we do have a nice, self congratulatory community!

Report · Oct 01, 2009

I agree with every word of that!

The Forums now offer nothing of interest to anyone but the laziest of the most raw of Newbies.

There are no longer any discussions in these Forums about advanced techniques or industry developments to interest professionals or even serious amateurs.

And the wondeful former ADOBE Community has been totally destroyed by the adoption of the cheapest version of the appalling Jive software and the influx of useless, unnecessary and frequently trouble-making "Community Experts" from the Macromedia Forums who have succeeded in making visits to the the former ADOBE Forums as ghastly an experience as were vists to the old Macromedia Forums.

Brilliant work Adobe!

And now your software sales are dropping to such precipitous levels that you have to spam our mail boxes with items like this?

http://direct.adobe.com/v?xlvvccnEnHTvqvP

The Forums are so dead and boring that they no longer produce any excitement nor desire to explore Adobe's products.

A new update to LightRoom was posted very recently and that news being discussed in the Adobe Forums would, in the past, have prompted many people to upgrade or buy LR.

Not these days. Most of us have stopped even looking at the new Forums any more and, if we do, it may be only about once a month.

And it is no good excusing this dismal performance on the economic downturn. Ancilliary graphic arts industries are selling their products — for example, there seems to be a buying frenzy for Nikon's high-end camera equipment with a shortage of stock at major dealers everywhere.

No, the current Corporate Management at Adobe has brought this situation on themselves — and most of the trouble seems to stem from their ill-advised acquisition of Macromedia and particularly the personnel that came with it.

Report · Oct 01, 2009

Ann Shelbourne wrote:
<snipped>
Brilliant work Adobe!
And now your software sales are dropping to such precipitous levels that you have to spam our mail boxes with items like this?
</snipped>

But their new logo... at least the one on the forums is so cool... it so very much emphasises the red...

Edited for spelling mistakes

Report · Oct 01, 2009

I only have one friend.

Can I borrow a friend from someone so I can pimp them to get that $50.00 amazon card?

Report · Oct 02, 2009

Ann Shelbourne wrote:
Brilliant work Adobe!
The Forums are so dead and boring that they no longer produce any excitement nor desire to explore Adobe's products...Not these days. Most of us have stopped even looking at the new Forums any more and, if we do, it may be only about once a month.
And it is no good excusing this dismal performance on the economic downturn. Ancilliary graphic arts industries are selling their products — for example, there seems to be a buying frenzy for Nikon's high-end camera equipment with a shortage of stock at major dealers everywhere.
No, the current Corporate Management at Adobe has brought this situation on themselves — and most of the trouble seems to stem from their ill-advised acquisition of Macromedia and particularly the personnel that came with it.

Ann I should have had you write my original post.

Just in case someone from corporate is reading this, we say these things because we saw Quark crash and burn because of the arrogance of their leaders now it seems the same thing is happening with Adobe. Wake up and smell the coffee, Creatives don't need tin pot dictators to keep them in line. What we do need is a forum that encourages discussions beyond basic "I'm to lazy to look up where this is or how to do something simple".

We want Adobe to succeed but things don't look good from this prospective.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

I don't see this happening, at least not until the issues with customer service are straightened out first and we all know that could take a while.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

. Wake up and smell the coffee, Creatives don't need tin pot dictators to keep them in line. What we do need is a forum that encourages discussions beyond basic "I'm to lazy to look up where this is or how to do something simple".

So, it might be interesting for you to consider why this is your perspective on the PS forum; yet many (if not most) of the other product forums here are vibrant, full of professionals answering both simple and high level questions, friendly and helpful? (Despite less than perfect forum sw)

Report · Oct 02, 2009

Your problem Curt is that you really do not begin to know the Photoshop application do you?
(I think that you have admitted as much in the past.)

Photoshop is a far more complex program than any of Adobe's others and has an impact on all aspects of the graphic arts industry.

I suggest that once you have taken the trouble to read, understand and learn ALL 590 pages of Bruce Fraser's "Real World Photoshop", you might begin to have some inkling of what the program encompasses!

New-comers desperately need the input from the Professional "Power Users" if they are to have any hope of mastering the complexities of Photoshop.

These are the people that YOU, and your cadre of so-called "Community Experts", have driven away.

The Photoshop Forums have always been entirely different from the other Forums because the program itself is very different from, and far more comprehensive and sophisticated than, any of the other Adobe/Macromedia applications.

Until April, we had a Forum Host (NOT a "Moderator"!) in Neil Keller who is a Printing Industry Professional with years of experience and is far more of an Expert in his field than you can ever hope to be.

As a result of the ill-considered change to Jive's atrocious software and the meddling in Forum affairs by you and the rest of the "Community Experts", we have lost Neil as well as countless others like him including Ramón Castañeda.
(That is his real name and you either do not have the courtesy, or perhaps the ability to use your keyboard to find the diacriticals, to spell his name correctly do you?!!)

The result is that discussions in the Photoshop Forum have now sunk to the imbecilic (but oh so cosy) level regularly seen in the Forums that you seem to prefer.

Formerly we witnessed virile no-punches-spared debates between a number of the graphic arts industry's Titans which provided high-level learning experiences for all who followed them.

Now all we have are boring repetitive questions (that are covered in the first pages of the Manual and have been already been answered a thousand times over in the Forums) and bland uninspiring replies so its no wonder that the real Experts — people who do know what they are talking about and also have real-world experience of Photography, Press and Web Production, computer operating systems and hardware and a wide range of ancillary machines and equipment — can no longer be bothered to waste their time in the Adobe Photoshop Forums.

Actually, it is NOT only the Photoshop Forums that are affected by the exodus — I have noticed that several published and highly esteemed authors and teachers of some other Adobe Applications are now posting in other Forums and Blogs on the Web but no longer contribute to the Adobe Forums.

And yes, I do blame the unwelcome input from Macromedia, and from you and your so-called "Expert" colleagues, for what has happened.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

Formerly we witnessed virile no-punches-spared debates between a number of the graphic arts industry's Titans which provided high-level learning experiences for all who followed them.

exactly.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

Interesting that you think Photoshop is the only complex program in Adobe's product lists. That reveals a lot. I know PS is complex; I use it pretty much daily. I also know there are other adobe industry standard apps that are just as complex if not more complex. Tell a motion graphics artist that After Effects is not complex. Tell a corporate web architect that Cold Fusion is not complex. Yet their forums are not the "community disaster" you paint. You appear to have a very narrow view and understanding of Adobe's product line and forums.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

You don't begin to "get it" Curt, do you?

The Photoshop Forums have always been very different from even the other formerly-Adobe Forums — let alone those perfectly horrible Macromedia ones.

The Photoshop Professional Users who formerly gave a lot of time to helping in the Photoshop Forums found them invigorating and interesting just the way that they were.

You, and your cohorts, thought you knew better.

You have forced your narrow-minded Micromediaized standards upon us with the result that many of us are totally disgusted by what you have done, now find the Forums to be pallid shadows of their former selves; and have dumped them as being a complete waste of our time.

If you want real world experts and professionals to help in the Adobe Forums, you simply will HAVE to learn to provide them with an environment in which they feel that they can function.

The present incarnation of the Adobe Photoshop Forums no longer hold any value and are simply not worth wasting time on.

You wanted to know why we thought that the professional Users had fled from your pathetic new Forums and I am telling you why — but you seem unable, or unwilling, to comprehend the message.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

Hi there

I'm having a real disconnect with your logic on all this.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:
You don't begin to "get it" Curt, do you?
The Photoshop Forums have always been very different from even the other formerly-Adobe Forums — let alone those perfectly horrible Macromedia ones.
The Photoshop Professional Users who formerly gave a lot of time to helping in the Photoshop Forums found them invigorating and interesting just the way that they were.
You, and your cohorts, thought you knew better.
You have forced your narrow-minded Micromediaized standards upon us with the result that many of us are totally disgusted by what you have done, now find the Forums to be pallid shadows of their former selves; and have dumped them as being a complete waste of our time.

I suppose I fall into the same category Curt does. I'm sure that Curt probably feels the same way I do. We were perfectly happy operating in our own forums as well. The Community Experts never asked for anything to be changed from the forum perspective.

Your comment seems to imply that the Community Experts recommended the forum change. Guess what? We didn't! We were simply advised of a new format being implemented. We had the same input as you did. This was a decision made by Adobe, not the Community Experts. I'm not sure why you feel we are to blame for that. Using your own logic on this, you share equally as much of the responsibility as we do for it!

Ann Shelbourne wrote:
If you want real world experts and professionals to help in the Adobe Forums, you simply will HAVE to learn to provide them with an environment in which they feel that they can function.

It's odd that "real world experts and professionals" seem to be incapable of navigating a new forum format. Yet newbees operate just fine? Besides, what do you expect Curt or any of the other Community Experts to do about it? The forums are owned by Adobe.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:
The present incarnation of the Adobe Photoshop Forums no longer hold any value and are simply not worth wasting time on.

Then why are you wasting your time? Besides, your statement only applies to your own viewpoint. I'm sure there are lots of folks that probably find them to be a worthwhile resource.

Ann Shelbourne wrote:
You wanted to know why we thought that the professional Users had fled from your pathetic new Forums and I am telling you why — but you seem unable, or unwilling, to comprehend the message.

And you seem oddly incapable or unwilling to differentiate between an unpaid volunteer user recognized by Adobe as being helpful and an actual Adobe employee.

Cheers... Rick

Report · Oct 02, 2009

It's odd that "real world experts and professionals" seem to be incapable of navigating a new forum format.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Who said anything about having navigational difficulties?

The unpalatable truth is that it is the whole culture of the Photoshop Forums that has changed.

It is not only the horrible, slow, ugly, inefficient format of the new Forums that has driven us away but the objectionable new style of "Moderating" that has wrecked the place by cramping expression and being overly restictive to Thread Drift so that no serious discussions can ever develop.

For THAT, you and your Volunteering "Community Experts" ARE entirely to blame.

Your presence here is not helpful and I for one do NOT appreciate the tone of your postings in response to any attempt that is being made to turn-around the disastrous landslide down which the Forums are descending.

But you, and your accomplices are totally self-satisfied with your performances, and seem unable to comprehend how much damaged you have caused.

The most helpful thing that you, and your Moderator friends, can do would be to skuttle back to your old haunts and leave the rest of us in peace.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

Ann Shelbourne wrote:
The most helpful thing that you, and your Moderator friends, can do would be to skuttle back to your old haunts and leave the rest of us in peace.

LOL. This IS our old Haunt!

Again; In most of the forums here what you are saying is simply not true. No matter how dramtically you say it, it wont make it true. Many of the forums here have healthy community minded discussions and moderation is largely invisable / rarely needed.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

I never remember seeing you here at any time in the past ten years until you showed up last Spring with a smirking avatar and sporting your "Community Expert" badge!

By "your old haunts" I meant the video forums — or wherever it is that you find so preferable to being here and having to associate with the Adobe Photoshop people who you so obviously dislike!

Report · Oct 02, 2009

No matter how dramtically you say it, it wont make it true. Many of the forums here have healthy community minded discussions and moderation is largely invisable / rarely needed.

That may be as YOU perceive it but I, amd obviously a lot of other former members of the Photoshop, ACR and Photography Forums, are seeing matters VERY differently and are voting with our feet.

What I find particularly galling, is your arrogance and complacency in refusing to consider that just for once in your life you may be utterly WRONG.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

I have no problems with you making constructive complaints about the forums you are involved in. But it is not appropriate for you to broadcast that every other forum has the same problems, because they don't. You are drawing conclusions in areas you have no or little information on. If you cant have a constructive conversation without spouting insults, you'll have to find someone else to play with. It is that very behavior that drives people away.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

But it is not appropriate for you to broadcast that every other forum has the same problems, because they don't.

Try to read a little more carefully.

I have specifically mentioned the Forums that I feel have changed for the worse because of the changes that have been made not only in format and software but also in the way that they are being "Moderated".

The Forums that have lost their most valuable contributors include the Photoshop Forums, the ACR and Bridge Forums and the Photography Forum (which was extremely active up until April but has now virtually dried up).

The two well-known authors of books about other Adobe Applications (to which I referred previously) no longer post in the Adobe Forums relating to their expertise (not the same ones as the ones I listed above) but are active in other Forums elsewhere on the Web.

Perhaps the level of discontent with the new Adobe Forums is much greater, and more wide-spread, than you wish to admit?

Forum Comments has also changed for the worse and that I attribute entirely to the input from you and the other "Community Experts" who throw their weight around here but refuse to pay any heed to the string of complaints from other members concerning the manner in which it is being "Moderated".

I do not believe that I am alone in taking exception to the way in which you operate.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

quote: Just in case anyone from Adobe thinks these forums are getting better

HA!

In her infamous "then vs than" speech, Dorothy promised us this JIVE bleep would be sooooo much better within 4 months or so that we would all forget how clean and easy to use the WebX version forums were.

I'm sure some of y'all remember... her "These aren't the <s> droids you're looking for</s> forums you thought they were." speech

Funny thing. My mind isn't so easily controlled.

Maybe I should try it on my own.

JIVE is JUST PEACHY

Jeeze.

Still not working.

Report · Oct 02, 2009

LOL, since I'm being accused of moderating and hanging out in the Photoshop forums perhaps I should! And of course I'm obtuse! Ahm wunna them thar silly ole Cummunnatee Exspurts. Shucks and goollee! After all, one tends to bring about what one expects, no?

You DO realize that this forum isn't the Photoshop forums, right? I've never visited the Photoshop forums. Perhaps Curt does, but I don't. I don't visit there, moderate there, drive users away from there, etc. And contrary to your Photoshop tunnel vision, Adobe now has over 80 different products. Some of them may even be more complex than Photoshop.

Like Curt, the forums where I hang out have seldom (if ever) required any moderation whatsoever. By and large everyone is professional and helpful. Really, the only moderation that has been necessary has been to occasionally move a thread to the correct venue. And in nearly every one of those cases the OP replied back with a "Thanks!" after the thread was moved.

I'm a peaceful person. Unfortunately it is you that seems to have the seething "all Community Experts are idiots and have no right to exist" attitude.

I hate to disappoint you, but anyone using the forums has a right to be here and discuss forum issues. I have no plans of skulking back anywhere. My opinions and observations are equally as valid as yours or anyone else's here.

Cheers... Rick

Report · Oct 02, 2009

I find it a pain to have to read through your long and rambling homilies in this forum but feel compelled to because of all the inaccuracies and prejudices contained therein.

I can't be bothered to deal with the points individually but you should stop hypothesising about events in forums which, by your own admission, you have never visited.

I do visit the Photoshop forums and can tell you that there was never an attitude which frightened away "newbies". There are one or two knowledgeable members who do not suffer fools gladly but there were, and still are, many more who nursed beginners along patiently. The occasional advice to use google is inevitable where the responder would have to do the same himself. I normally refer people to adobe's own support documents where I can.

The standard of participation has indeed gone from useful and enlightening to basic beginner. It is really depressing and I only continue because I feel sorry for the people subject to the atrocious standard of customer support afforded by adobe itself.

You people may feel the need to defend adobe because of your fancy titles but you are not helping to put things right. There are some unobtrusive and helpful community experts out there but they get on with it and don't come in here shooting their mouths off.

Report · Oct 06, 2009

Your problem Curt is that you really do not begin to know the Photoshop application do you? (I think that you have admitted as much in the past.)
Photoshop is a far more complex program than any of Adobe's others and has an impact on all aspects of the graphic arts industry.

Ann,

I do not know Curt's background with PS, but as I have used it almost everyday, since it was first released for the PC, I think that I can address some of your concerns. First, I'd also suggest that you look into Premiere Pro/Encore. Just the definitive book on DVD's is well over 1000 pages, and the knowledge contianed within is almost required reading, to begin to understand DVD/BD - the end result for a majority of Projects in those two bundled programs. PS is not unique (other than rightfully being the flagship program for Adobe), as there are some others complex programs in the stable too.

Now, I do agree that the subjects of posts has changed over the years. I began with the old PS "forum," which was a "news group" back when it was only available via NTTP - the Internet, as we know it, did not yet exist. Then, there were basic questions on where to find a Tool, how the settings applied, and as features, such as Layers were added, what they did and how best to use them. Back then, most of the questions were more about the creative aspects of the program's use. Most of these were quickly answered by power-users, many working in the industry. Some went on to work for Adobe, some went on to publish books on PS, some stuck around and then some just "went on."

I have seen the decline in the creative questions over the years. I see the same in the PrPro and in the Encore fora. Much of this is probably directly attributable to the myriad issues with installation and general usage in/of the respective programs. Far too many posts are really just rants, though I am not saying that rants might not be justified. It is just that they do not further the creative usage of the Adobe programs, represented in the respective fora.

I'd guess that the biggest reasons for the high level of such posts is based on at least two things: some poor coding and Bugs in both the installers and in the programs themselves, and the decline in useful TS/CS on Adobe's part. I do not think that the dearth of more "meaty" posts is because of the disappearance of the power-users. The posters, with the questions, have no idea as to who might be in the forum, or might have been there five years ago. They just have a question and are looking for answers.

This does not diminish those great contributors, who have moved on, for whatever their reasons might be. Their continued support in the fora, and their many contributions are missed. I miss them. Most, who knew of them, miss them. The new poster does not, but they do not know of those contributions.

Most of those contributors, who I have the pleasure to know outside of the fora, have left for many and often different reasons. One common reason is a change in career, often resulting in less time to contribute. Some have expressed displeasure with the new forum structure and have left, because they just could not work with it - too frustrating. Some have undertaken major Projects (mostly in the PrPro forum), and just cannot get away to do anything in the forum. A few have shown back up, when the Project was completed. Some just totally retired and did not find the time for the fora anymore. Some of these changed their life focus to say, birding, travel or something far removed from Adobe programs. I can certainly understand the latter, as I have been spending more time in the air, heading to some great dining spot, and less time even using my Adobe programs. None has indicated that they left because of any Community Expert, and none due to any Host/MOD. Now, this is from a tiny sampling, but covers several Adobe fora.

I do miss the creative questions, and jump into any that I come across, in hopes of paying back the graphics/photographic communities for the great life that they have afforded me. Also, and especially with some of the newer releases, I also hope to learn a new trick, or technique. I bemoan the lack of such questions too.

Just some observations,

Hunt

Report · Oct 08, 2009

Curt Wrigley

The Name says it all...

Report · Oct 03, 2009

Curt Wrigley wrote:
So, it might be interesting for you to consider why this is your perspective on the PS forum; yet many (if not most) of the other product forums here are vibrant, full of professionals answering both simple and high level questions, friendly and helpful? (Despite less than perfect forum sw)

I dunno about that, the Flex forums have without a doubt lost quite a few experienced people. And a good number of the posts there now are basic level stuff that any simple Google search will give you an answer for. When I see a question posted and I know I can instantly go to Google, type 3 words and find a blog with the exact answer to the person's question on the first page.... well, that's kinda sad.

And not to downplay the outrageous complexities of PS, but Flex/Air are unlike other Adobe products being that they're for software engineers, so the loss of expertise there definitely damages the quality of responses. There were problems getting decent answers or discussions going for advanced topics even before the jiving of the forums, so this sucks.

It's not just PS.

(Edit: By the way, I just tried "updating" this post and IT DID NOTHING. This is the second time I am attempting to edit this post. Let's see if Jive CRAP WARE decides to work this time...)