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LOL welcome back Ann! I've wondered where you've been!
So nice to see you again. Thank you for stopping by.
Ann Shelbourne wrote:
You just hit the nail very squarelly on its head!!
Like this? 
Ann Shelbourne wrote:
Captiv8r and Curt certainly have demonstrated that very clearly to me: their recent comments in this Forum are showing them both to be unbearably smug and totally self-satisfied windbags.
Neither of them adds any value to this Forum. Their total achievement here has been to stir-up dissension and their perceived association with Adobe can only be detrimental to Adobe's reputation.
If that's the way you see it, that's your reality. Meh... I can't change that nor do I really care to. There are thousands of folks I've helped through the years that would likely view it differently. My account at the FUBOGK is overflowing anyway. I like to keep it that way. 
Ann Shelbourne wrote:
If Adobe has any sense it will remove their ridiculous badges and distance itself from all of these infuriating Community Demolition Experts.
LOL, please do tell us where you stand! In other posts you claim that Adobe has no sense and is out to destroy the community. You cannot have it both ways. Either Adobe has sense or it doesn't. Personally, I don't believe Adobe grew to be the size it is by making bad and stupid decisions.
Unfortunately the badge galls you. I cannot change that. I do enjoy the privileges kindly affords me for my contributions. I've worked very hard to earn it and I do consider it to be a badge of honor, despite the way you may view it.
You know, it's really unfortunate that one cannot seem to express one's opinion here on things without infuriating folks such as you. I also find it most odd how I receive private messages congratulating me and Curt and Jochem for making our voices heard because those sending the private messages don't wish to suffer the unjust public flogging you and others see fit to impose and inflict on anyone that expresses an opinion that differs from yours or that may imply the forums improved from their standpoint. So like it or not, there are others that lurk here and disagree with you.
You know this will likely surprise (and probably sicken) you. But if you were able to step back and just objectively review all your rants about the Community Experts program, you come off leaving the distinct impression that you feel you have been somehow slighted and should have been invited into the program yourself.
I typically close my posts using my real name. Any head swelling is a direct result of angry forum comments users bashing us because they have a knee jerk reaction to seeing a Community Expert badge. OMG! A Community Expert might share an opinion and it might differ from mine!
How boring I feel the world would be if we were all the same and didn't have differing viewpoints.
Cheers... Rick 
Captiv8r wrote:
LOL, please do tell us where you stand! In other posts you claim that Adobe has no sense and is out to destroy the community. You cannot have it both ways. Either Adobe has sense or it doesn't. Personally, I don't believe Adobe grew to be the size it is by making bad and stupid decisions.
Unfortunately the badge galls you. I cannot change that. I do enjoy the privileges kindly affords me for my contributions. I've worked very hard to earn it and I do consider it to be a badge of honor, despite the way you may view it.
Personally I don't believe Enron grew to be the size it (was) by making bad and stupid decisions... oh wait. 
Yes, yes I do. 
Point being, that's a logical fallacy--Adobe being a "large" company doesn't mean every decision they make is right. Besides, rapid corporate growth isn't the best indicator of "correctness", Mr Bill Gates...
One problem with the silly 'badges' (we don't need no stinkin badges!) arises when people who do deserve them aren't recognized (for whatever reason)--others work hard as well and Adobe playing favorites by picking and choosing who to single out as "more valuable" to the community isn't exactly an effective community building exercise.
Ansury wrote:
Personally I don't believe Enron grew to be the size it (was) by making bad and stupid decisions... oh wait.
Okay, point taken. I accept that. I'm not sure that I understand what your meaning is with Mr Bill Gates... I do know that many folks despise him because he was successful. And many of those same folks would not have jobs today if it weren't for Microsoft becoming so large. But whatever.
Ansury wrote:
One problem with the silly 'badges' (we don't need no stinkin badges!) arises when people who do deserve them aren't recognized (for whatever reason)--others work hard as well and Adobe playing favorites by picking and choosing who to single out as "more valuable" to the community isn't exactly an effective community building exercise.
I know you weren't speaking to me directly on this and were being generic with reference to Adobe. But many of us arrived by virtue of Adobe acquiring other companies. Adobe obviously looked at what the other companies were doing and decided it must have been a good move overall.
I'm not sure that Adobe still operates this way, but it may. In some cases one becomes a Community Expert / MVP / Whatever by other folks nominating them. I've done this myself. I found some others that seemed to exhibit a wealth of knowledge and helpfulness. I nominated them. This brings them to the company's attention. Once that happens their name is put forth to other community members and a vote occurs. Well, that's the way it worked at one point. I'm not certain it's still that way. I do know that a review process occurs periodically. In order to remain a member in good standing, you are expected to demonstrate the same by pointing to the contributions you have made during the period under review.
It is becoming quite clear to me that the "Community Expert" badging is nothing more than a red flag in this forum with certain individuals. There seems to be an automatic reaction that equates that to Adobe and to Moderator and all are bad.
From my standpoint the true tragedy here is the atmosphere of this particular forum is not conducive to constructive and polite discussion of opinions. Any opinion expressed that differs from some seems to result in an immediate bum's rush attempt to rudely attack the opinion and the person and hope they leave as a result of stepping into the wrong sandbox.
Cheers and happy Friday... Rick
It is becoming quite clear to me that the "Community Expert" badging is nothing more than a red flag in this forum with certain individuals. There seems to be an automatic reaction that equates that to Adobe and to Moderator and all are bad.
Quite honestly Community Expert really means nothing...It is just a title like "Newbie"...users really don't care about the name. It's the fact that the Community Experts are allowed to run around here with their noses held high because they have a special title under their name (not all, but a majority). Now I don't frequent every forum on here, but I do visit quite a few and I can say that for the most part the Community Experts do not provide and better advice to users than the users themselves do. Thus there is no reason for the title. Sure you can say that you have all these achievements outside of the forums, but then again, so do other regular users that have no privileges. Since it is a "Community Expert" then it should really be up to the community to decide who should be given that title, not just be nominated by someone at Adobe. That is why the Community Experts are being singled out.
From my standpoint the true tragedy here is the atmosphere of this particular forum is not conducive to constructive and polite discussion of opinions. Any opinion expressed that differs from some seems to result in an immediate bum's rush attempt to rudely attack the opinion and the person and hope they leave as a result of stepping into the wrong sandbox.
If you recall, there were polite discussions months ago on forum performance, etc. None of those were fixed. They were brought up again and again and again and here there are many things still not fixed. So excuse the users who keep this place going by logging on everyday, but if this crap Jive stuff had been fixed then the attitude of the users might perhaps be a bit more sunny by now 
Hi Oz
Well I must hand it to you. At least you reply without ranting. You have no clue how much I appreciate that.
Wow, I'm going to have to re-read some of my own posts. I honestly don't recall ever saying anything that would be construed as "run around here with my nose held high because I have a special title under my name." I did take notice that you said: (not all, but a majority) so perhaps that wasn't tossed my way personally but was more of a general example.
Again, my own experiences are only with TWO of the multitude of forums. But none of the existing Community Experts in my two forums have ever exhibited that behavior. I think we would be shocked if that were to happen and take action among ourselves to fix the situation. We do tend to band together at times and try to think of things that will improve our respective communities and we are very respectful of each other's knowledge and areas of expertise. So if you are seeing otherwise in other forums, it might be worth calling it to Adobe's attention. Then again, I also know that sometimes it's like pulling hens teeth to get one removed from the program. I've seen that happen as well when another CE became nasty with other users.
Like any program, the Community Experts program is not perfect. There are likely those that aren't truly deserving of the status. I recall one in my group that had Community Expert as a signature line in his E-Mail. Then he would wander off in a Non-Adobe forum and ask basic and silly questions in a community where many real world experts with many years of experience gather. And that was totally embarrassing for those of us that shared that designation. So it happens, sure.
As I said earlier, I have no clue what the actual process is today. I don't know if it's Adobe themselves or if it's other community members that make the nominations. But years ago when I was offered the title, it *WAS* a nomination made by community members. And I do agree with you. The community should have a say. However, if you are a Community Expert in good standing, this would mean you are active in the community and *should* be able to recognize whether a nominee shares the characteristics required for nomination.
As for the discussions here, I may have posted once or maybe twice when they were beta testing the forum software before we went live. I never began participating in earnest until I was granted moderator status. And that hasn't been that long ago. I do believe my first encounter here was with one very unhappy Ramòn and was a result of trying to be a polite moderator in one of the two forums I actually moderate in. So really, the only real experience I have here has been from that point forward.
Cheers... Rick
Well I must hand it to you. At least you reply without ranting. You have no clue how much I appreciate that.
I don't rant very often.
And I do not have anything against you yourself, you seem nice enough and seem to be trying to mediate things (though going in circles at times). I'm just making an overall assumption.
I generally patrol 4 product forums, both platforms as those are the ones I use every day. Sometimes I troll over to others as I have experience in those products as well, but don't use them everyday.
Outside of the art world I generally patrol car forums, it's my home hobby....I have 7 and counting And I can say that there is no other forum I have ran across that so many displeased users as this new/jive one. I can also say that if any one of those forums had such a displeased crowd they would no longer be running, and I have seen that happen too.
Honestly I can't believe that someone from here hasn't created a forum that has totally taken over this user crowd by now.
Ozzwoman9 wrote:
Now I don't frequent every forum on here, but I do visit quite a few and I can say that for the most part the Community Experts do not provide and better advice to users than the users themselves do.
Well, maybe I shouldn´t say this here, but I fully agree with this
The way I interpret it, the term "Community Expert" does not say "Product Expert", and it does definitely not imply something like "here´s a product expert who´s better than all the others". And although it´s obvious that us folks must come up with provable expertise for that (usually just one) product we´re entitled to carry that badge for, it´s - my assumption - a variety of "community" related criteria which may be *the* significant key factor to Adobe when deciding who´s temporarily entitled to get this designation and who´s not.
I really don´t know how Adobe handles this internally, but if I were to designate someone with such a (currently needlessly generalized, what I consider debatable and worth changing, because it *is* related to usually just one product respectively of meaning only for the related group of users) title, I´d check whether this person fulfills these product expertise unrelated criteria:
- proven "moderation" qualities, including the ability to motivate other users
- already being a well accepted contributor within the user community of that particular product he/she will be supporting, as it doesn´t make any sense to try designating someone who´s *not* already well integrated into the corresponding product specific user community
- providing some sort of long-term consistency related to what I´d circumscribe as "being there while the non-community-expert user doesn´t have to and is free to jump in and out discussions at any time".
- does this person realize that he/she is supposed to support a particular "community" with a (in terms of age, gender, experience and - yes - level of fear of possibly asking a "wrong" question and hence embarrass oneself in public) pretty broad spectrum of users, and hence is supposed to stay well clear from acting up as playground bully, insulting others or alienating in particular the inexperienced users, and instead demonstrate a generally welcoming and, say, integrative nature which simply "embraces" everyone seeking help regardless his/her previous knowledge ? Well, guess who´s the one "forum comments" contributor who, according to at least one of these critera, IMHO would certainly fail the "Community Expert" selection procedure first round ?
Of course we Community Experts are not involved in the decision process, but I think it´s safe to assume that these "community" related criteria do play a decisive role to those in charge of a designation.
However, it´s not essentially about having to give the "better advice" to others at all times, and it´s clear as mud that each one of us knows other users within that particular user community "niche" we´re supporting who are technically on par with us and at times even much better than us. But how comes that (based on my own experience in "my" product niche, but I´m convinced that other Community Expert fellows could tell a similar story...) I never had to deal with the issue you´re mentioning, and that "we" at times even team up with other experienced "non expert" users to help someone getting a tricky problem solved, and without any signs of internal rivalry ?
I for once have never experienced any such struggle for competence between myself and a "non community expert" user, and I think it´s alright to assume that those of us who are getting re-nominated do in fact happen to "lead" (definitely inappropriate and de facto wrong term, I know ) a very healthy user community -- if it were any different, Adobe would be detaching that badge from user A after an inspection and give it to someone else who´s shown to be more worthy, end of story.
Günter
Captiv8r wrote:
Okay, point taken. I accept that. I'm not sure that I understand what your meaning is with Mr Bill Gates... I do know that many folks despise him because he was successful. And many of those same folks would not have jobs today if it weren't for Microsoft becoming so large. But whatever.
Since I know you're just dying to know why I called out Bill Gates, I was indirectly referencing what many people feel were "questionable" business tactics used in the process of growing Microsoft to where it is now.
I don't have a problem with that particular method of choosing community experts (via nomination/vote) but I stand by my implication that officially splitting the community symbolically is not conducive to community building. (Or re-building, perhaps I should say after the forum changeover.)
IMO which doesn't matter at all, such a system would be better done using a product membership system where people pay a small amount per year (similar to a magazine cost), and in return they get the in-forum "badge" as well as some other perks such as discounts on products or books, an email newsletter pertaining to their specific product(s) if useful, an adobe.com blog or perhaps basic web hosting, some enhanced forum features (big LOL there), etc.
A site I used to visit called gamedev.net has such a system they call GDNet+. Due to the fact that there's a small amount of money involved, in general the only people who get the special callout and benefits are long time community participants and experts. So the basic goal of Adobe "community expert" labels is being met, but it's done in a way that doesn't potentially offend (plus it brings in more money)... And of course, Adobe would still be free to offer free memberships to those who they feel should be rewarded for exceptional assistance (just not in a public sense).
I realize this is far beyond what Adobe's current system involves but this would eliminate any perceived community division that some users here experience. Personally (if these forums ever worked properly) I'd pay for such a collection of benefits, too.
I agree with you on this.
Personally I don't recall violating any of these rules and the forums are too slow for me to trawl through this lengthy thread to double check, and I'm too lazy to go looking. So I'll take your word for it.
I'll add that if I did violate any of these rules, it was purely unintentional or what I said was misunderstood.
Cheers... Rick
Captiv8r wrote:
Hi Claudio
I'm guessing you are referring to me?
No need to guess. In his message #126 above, John quoted and commented a message of mine which was written in direct response to you, so none of us was hiding that we were talking about you.
Captiv8r wrote:
(Sorry, but I've been out of touch for a few days while traveling on business)
I am afraid that this is not corroborated by the list of messages you have posted in the last week.
Captiv8r wrote:
Since when have I ever deleted messages here? I'm not sure what it takes to make you understand I don't moderate here.
Unless I'm very wrong, you are entitled to delete messages in any thread. You have said that you have not deleted any message in this thread, and I have taken your word for it. I am however entitled to find it curious that you haven't eliminated -or asked to eliminate- for example, message #64 above, in which khaziranga rightly complains bitterly once more for your continuous reinterpretations. Message that, by the way, you didn't even care to answer.
Captiv8r wrote:
Interesting too how you accuse me of twisting things around, then you do the same.
Examples, please. It's all too easy to accuse without proof. And I didn't accuse you of twisting things around; I merely repeated what one of the affected persons had demonstrated you had done, and others have repeated many times in this thread alone.
Captiv8r wrote:
Then again, I suspect you and Anne are perhaps siblings as the rules you claim I'm breaking are perfectly fine for you to break as well.
Same comment: examples, please. And sharing an opinion doesn't make people siblings, much as you may suspect it.
Captiv8r wrote:
I have no clue what you mean by "incriminating messages".
Easy: messages that prove that you have at best been wrong. I have already given a concrete example, and unfortunately I would waste too much time in the present form of these forums looking for others. But there are more than just that one.
Captiv8r wrote:
After all, it's not me that's flaunting the forum guidelines put forth:
Do:
- Respect others
- Assume good faith
- Share what you know
- Be kind to newbies — we were all new once
- Encourage others; recognize and praise good work
- Attract and honor good, knowledgeable people
- Ask for help, and help others in return
- Set a good example
- Add information about yourself to your forum profile
- Visit the Forum FAQ
Don't:
- Infringe on copyrighted material
- Use obscene or offensive language
- Personally attack people, their edits (including spelling or grammar), or their comments
Yes, you are constantly breaking the rules you yourself colored. And it's not my opinion only...
Captiv8r wrote:
Surely none of this will bother anyone. Especially since you are ignoring me.
Another interpretation/invention of yours. And surely you are perfectly capable of writing a long sermon trying to convince the rest of us that this sentence of mine (in my message #127 above, which you were responding in the message I have quoted here),
So, even if it would be much better for my mental health to simply ignore him, I will not surrender yet.
can be taken to mean (amongst other things) that I have decided to ignore you...
Message was edited by: Claudio González on October 10 at 7:38 am (local).. Reason: small grammatical changes.
It is still messed up. I responded to your reply as Phillip jones yet it shows me replying to pjoneCET?
Weird things happen here.
Edit: did not happen if I do not include what you wrote. So lets include it and see what happens
PjonesCET wrote:
I have two accounts under almost the same Identical name and using almost the same user name. One was while I was asking questions in the DreamWeaver forum while Macromedia was still in existence.One here in the Adobe Forums first asking question in Acrobat this was first in the Acrobat 4/5 days. Then answering questions based on experience. Then to the furums section when I was having problems with the forums myself. Now that both have merged In order to get to this one which I prefer is sign in using my email address. If I sign in with my username pjoneCET then I end up in the old dreamweaver Setup. I 've asked politely several times how to get them combined so that when I sign in I go to this one. Other people have asked and go action within days. I have yet to see any action and don't expect it.
Yup, PjonesCET shows up.
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