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Kath-H
Inspiring
August 7, 2009
Answered

Moderation in this forum

  • August 7, 2009
  • 12 replies
  • 43591 views

OK, here goes.


For a long time there has been little or no evidence of any hosts, moderators or Adobe employees in here. John C and kanguyen make very welcome appearances from time to time, and both show an immaculate attitude, but little happens to improve things - although thanks to those who made a proper sticky about the use of this forum.


We have been relieved of a host who was allegedly a Community Expert in 'Creative Suite', but had apparently fulfilled none of the criteria for a Community Expert - such as being an expert in something. Nor did this person have more than a very wobbly grasp of how the forums actually work. With zero credibility, said person annoyed people by moralising and lecturing at them.


So now we have a pretty bolshy group of people who are sitting about, kicking their heels, hoping against hope that someone will sort out this buggy, defective software. Many have made very detailed, constructive suggestions and requests, others have gone to the trouble of making work-arounds. In the meantime they are chatting amongst themselves, which is normal behaviour for bored people in a waiting room who are still hoping for something to happen.


There are people who have used the WebX forums for years and years and appreciated them, even with their faults. These people are still grumpy about being shifted onto something they see as much worse. So there are bad moods around.


In my personal opinion, there have been quite a lot of posts, probably some of them mine, that are unnecessarily off-topic, sarcastic and hostile. A bit of a tug on the reins would be no bad thing in my view.


However, moderating a group such as the one gathered here is not easy. To be successful, it is necessary to show good humour, a sense of humour, a willingness to explain actions, and a degree of courtesy and respect, even to those who are not behaving particularly well at the time. Oz was a shining example, and brought a considerable degree of order to the Lounge (an even wilder corner of the West ) without antagonising anyone - well, maybe just the one serial reprobate who is unreachable anyway.


The proverbial 'firm but fair' - and a very nice bloke.


To suddenly begin mass deletions, without showing any of these qualities, may well be counter-productive.


For me, Jochem has a head start, since I believe he is the possessor of a minor-planet-sized brain and the skills to sort this mess out in minutes if he were given the chance. Good start. Now we need a better balance between discouragement of excessive pointless and snarky posts, information about what progress is being made / might be made / won't be made on forum fixes and improvements, individual help like JC has always provided for people who have weird stuff going on with their account, and a degree of visible humanity - please - to gain the consent of those being moderated.

    This topic has been closed for replies.
    Correct answer

    I still can't get past the idea that "discussion" was invited and yet at the same time not needed.

    Jochem,

    I don't understand how you can be so hard-headed and stubborn!  I do understand that when we, any of us, do something, we generally feel we are correct in our actions.  BUT that does NOT mean we cannot learn from others and see that perhaps what we *thought* was correct, is just possibly slightly off-center from being correct.  One must be willing to see that there *are* other ways to look at things and that our way is not the only way.

    I liken being a forum moderator to being a manager over staff that are from different cultural, socioeconomic and educational backgrounds.  You want them to work for you right?  If your goal is to have them work *with* you and not *against* you, then you can't take the approach you're taking in these forums right now.  In real life, you would have a full mutiny on your hands with the "my way or the highway approach".  It takes patience, sensitivity and a strong sense of fairness.  Believe me, it's not an easy task!  I am speaking from my own personal real life situation here, so I really do know where of I speak.

    Please, take the positive, meant in the best way comments from here and allow yourself to grow.  It shouldn't hurt too much!

    edited for grammar

    12 replies

    August 10, 2009

    Well we know that Adobe does not care that much, if they did, they would not out source their support to india. Instead they would hire Americans who can be understood and need jobs. Also they would pay attention to their customers who without they would not exist.

    August 9, 2009

    All the new mods are acting just like the cop who arrested Prof. Gates. "I don't care if you are right or live here I don't like your attitude. I'm going to arrest you anyway".

    I've seen this with cops, security guards, and security goons at music events. Give a man a badge or a security shirt and he becomes a jerk. There maybe a small percentage that don't act this way but as a whole this has always proven to be true. Its definitely a power thing. "I'm going to do it because I can no matter how many people I piss off. If you don't like it leave, I don't care, because if you leave it will be one less person complaining. This is a really rotten attitude for Adobe to be projecting.

    If my words have offended anyone and any part of it gets deleted then I'm right on the money. I have absolutely no respect for any of the new mods because they have not acted in a manner that would convince me to respect them. This place has become less and less friendly since the switch to Jive, and there is absolutely no sense of community anymore.

    If we did not care we would not be complaining as much as we do, no matter what the arrogant new mods believe.

    Inspiring
    August 9, 2009

    I am glad you are stepping in because I am sure you can help me understand something. When I started moderating I had done 4 things as a moderator:

    1. Moved a thread to the correct forum with an explanation. (Mon 19:28 UTC)
    2. Locked an off topic thread start with explanation and link to the correct place. (Tue 08:02 UTC)
    3. Locked an off topic thread with an explanation and a link to the correct place. (Wed 20:43 UTC)
    4. Locked a thread that was going downhill while removing some post about smelly cat food. (Wed 22:19 UTC)

    Somehow that was reason for you to start this whole escalation with the "Hey Lock this thread too!!!!" thread. So please enlighten me, what is so terribly unfair about what I did?

    David_Powers
    Inspiring
    August 10, 2009

    David_Powers wrote:

    ...several things spring to mind:

    • We're in the middle of a deep economic downturn.
    • Adobe announced last December that it was laying off 600 employees.
    • As part of its economy measures, Adobe has closed its North America operations for a week in Q2 & Q3.

    Given that background, it's highly likely that enhancements to a free service, such as these forums, is not one of the company's top priorities at the moment.

    ...

    I think it's time to get back to the product forums, and stop beating a dead horse about the glory that was the past.

    Given that background, I don't know what the cost was, but I wonder why and how much money Adobe paid the Jive snake oil salesmen to upgrade their "free*" service.  *(Is it really free? These forums aren't much use unless you've paid for some Adobe product [minus free ones like Flash Player].  So I'd say: since it's an industry standard to provide support forums for most commercial software--these forums are paid for as part of the product purchase itself. "Free community support" (forums) are absolutely a factor when deciding what products we buy.)

    As far as getting back to the product forums... meh.  Once I've seen that Adobe actually cares, maybe I'll start to care a little more too.  As of now I'm still not ruling out a switch to Silverlight in a year or two when it matures more...


    Ansury wrote:

    As far as getting back to the product forums... meh.  Once I've seen that Adobe actually cares, maybe I'll start to care a little more too.

    That could become a circular argument. Maybe Adobe won't pay much notice to those whose main participation consists of complaining rather than contributing.

    Ramón G Castañeda
    Inspiring
    August 9, 2009

    Jochem van Dieten is now in my Plonk list. 

    Plonk!

    Ramón G Castañeda
    Inspiring
    August 9, 2009

    It's amusing, interesting and ironic that a fervent NTTP advocate, van Dieten, has now been brought down to the janitorial level of a forum bouncer.

    Just think:  if we had NTTP, which he champions, he would be utterly powerless at censoring individual posts. 

    He could prbably block and ban posters after the fact, but anyone could just create additional new accounts (like LT) and their sent posts would be irretrievably all over the net. 

    Inspiring
    August 9, 2009

    I have no iterest in suppressing certain messages everywhere, I am perfecly happy to just suppress then here. Everything you posted as a duplicate to the Lounge is still there. I just wish you would take the hint.

    Besides, NNTP is so last year:

    Ramón G Castañeda
    Inspiring
    August 9, 2009

    All posts of mine deleted by van Dieten, including the original text of this message and in one below no longer visible on the web interface, have been sent out by email anyway.

    Additionally, they're already cached in Google groups.

    Ramón G Castañeda
    Inspiring
    August 8, 2009

    Here goes post #42 all over again.

    Two things to remember:

    • some folks forget that they cease to be "one of us" when they become hosts; and

    • they've never read the Gandhi quote.  It is time, therefore, to repeat it:

    This is a genuine, well-known quote by Mahatma Ghandi, the Indian spiritual leader and activist:

    • A customer is the most important visitor on our premises, he is not dependent on us. We are dependent on him.


    • He is not an interruption in our work. He is the purpose of it.


    • He is not an outsider in our business. He is part of it.


    • We are not doing him a favor by serving him.     He is doing us a favor by giving us an opportunity to do so.

    http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:QU-_-MGLrrqQhM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Gandhi_costume.jpg

    Employees of any entity, whether in government or in private business, will do well to keep it in mind and at heart.

    The recent post by Kim A. Nguyen, universally well received here, shows that she knows this principle and puts it into practice.

    However, a few Adobe staff and associates seem somehow to think that Adobe's customers are lowly adversaries in some sort of Internet game or in a newsgroup.  Those who manifest that misguided and poisonous attitude in this forum and in their blogs are showing their incompetence and their ignorance of basic business principles.  To them I say:  you're dead wrong!  You are far from being our superiors, you are our servants.

    They should know well who they are—and we certainly do.

    August 8, 2009

    Thank you for the invite. I have already posted what was on my mind thus I feel no need to post anything else about the subject. Some thoughts (not all), posted by others, echo my thoughts. The respones given to their posts provide my answers. 

    Correct answer
    August 8, 2009

    I still can't get past the idea that "discussion" was invited and yet at the same time not needed.

    Jochem,

    I don't understand how you can be so hard-headed and stubborn!  I do understand that when we, any of us, do something, we generally feel we are correct in our actions.  BUT that does NOT mean we cannot learn from others and see that perhaps what we *thought* was correct, is just possibly slightly off-center from being correct.  One must be willing to see that there *are* other ways to look at things and that our way is not the only way.

    I liken being a forum moderator to being a manager over staff that are from different cultural, socioeconomic and educational backgrounds.  You want them to work for you right?  If your goal is to have them work *with* you and not *against* you, then you can't take the approach you're taking in these forums right now.  In real life, you would have a full mutiny on your hands with the "my way or the highway approach".  It takes patience, sensitivity and a strong sense of fairness.  Believe me, it's not an easy task!  I am speaking from my own personal real life situation here, so I really do know where of I speak.

    Please, take the positive, meant in the best way comments from here and allow yourself to grow.  It shouldn't hurt too much!

    edited for grammar

    August 8, 2009

    August 7, 2009

    Start reporting the bad host for abuse.

    Fr__Watson
    Participating Frequently
    August 7, 2009
    Start reporting the bad host for abuse.

    You know, that idea had occurred to me!

    Curt Wrigley
    Inspiring
    August 7, 2009

    This forum has a purpose.  It is not a lounge. 

    When posts are made that have nothing to do with its purpose, they will be removed, edited or locked.   Behavior contrary to the general forum guidelines will result in same.

    Most Hosts refuse to even come here (to this forum ) any more, since there is little to no real content anymore.   Distorting a forum where you have a voice for forum bugs/improvements to a playground is not wise.

    All the posts that have been moderated here have been for legitimate reasons aligned with the forum guidelines.  The Hosts are doing their job (the ones who still come here).

    Fr__Watson
    Participating Frequently
    August 7, 2009

    All the posts that have been moderated here have been for legitimate reasons aligned with the forum guidelines.  The Hosts are doing their job (the ones who still come here).

    Oh, so deleting a harmless remark about lion tamers was that important?

    Have you no comment on the fact that Mr. Van Dieten asked for suggestions as how to do things differently, yet, when given a suggestion, said

    I could have. I didn't. I will continue not to do so in the future. I am after all a poor, heavy handed host.

    Do you think that is acceptable behaviour from a moderator? I don't. Do you not think that in order to be an effective forum Moderator that one should treat users with respect? Do you have no response at all to any of the criticisms of the way in which the moderation is being done? Or are you just here to lecture?

    August 7, 2009

    [personal attacks edited out]  is just another reason I find myself less interested in coming to these forums and helping out.

    A host needs skin thicker than an onion.

    This place is getting worse everyday.

    August 7, 2009

    A customer is the most  important visitor on our premises.

    He is not dependent on us.

    We are dependent  on him.

    He is not an interruption in our work.

    He is the purpose of it.

    He is not  an outsider in our business.

    He is part of it.

    We are not doing him a favor by  serving him.

    He is doing us a favor by giving us an opportunity to do so.

    - Gandhi