Quark and Corel make a comeback

[becusa]

Having purchased and used Adobe products in our creative agencies for almost 20 years, I cannot emphasize how incensed the CC only model makes me. Yes, I know that CS6 is still available, but I guarantee that once the storm over CC has settled that too will go the way of the dinosaur - call me cynical but I have a feeling it has only been retained temporarily to provide the forum staff something to quote in an attempt to appease the rightly infuriated masses.

The creative cloud software and delivery system is buggy and glitchy - just check the other Adobe forums - we cannot have 'downtime' where our software does not or will not function due to logins / incessant updates / accessibility.

The cost for 'leasing' access to the Adobe software is considerably higher in the long run - $X per month forever and never own anything, rather than $X as a one time cost of ownership and a reduced cost upgrade path.

You can guarantee that the price will increase once 'box' versions are no longer available / updated / supported and the masses have been forced to convert. Especially as the longest 'pre-pay' term is currently only 12 months.

Many people do not need all access to all of Adobe's software applications, which is why they offered various versions of the Creative Suite in the first place.

We do not need cloud services, we work with massive files, have multiple backups - and have remote file access where necessary - the last thing we need is CC monopolizing our available bandwidth.

In other words, we will not go the way of the cloud.

Adobe have always made great software, but the CC business model may yet bite back.  At one point in time QuarkXpress was No.1 and all but unassailable - and then due to reknowned poor service and an overwhelmingly arrogant attitude to its customers they suffered huge market share losses to InDesign.

History repeating?

[omega-man]

I upgraded Quark 6.5 to version 9 a year ago in anticipation of where a Adobe was headed, as a backup. You can upgrade any version of Quark from version 3 onwards for a limited time for sum of $279.20… and version 10… all new from the ground up is just around the corner!

http://shop.quark.com/pa/p-6-quarkxpress-9-pacific-asia-and-africa-edition.aspx

[Mitch1987]

Can anyone tell me... is the new QuarkXP supported by the Macbook Pro "retina display"? Anyone know?

[omega-man]

System requirements here: http://forums.quark.com/t/21811.aspx

[Axiom DeSigns]

After caving in and subscribing to CS6 I thought it wouldn't be too bad having access to "state of the art" Adobe offerings.

Then came CC and though I was a bit excited for more 64bit goodness, it ended there.

The CC versions are glitchy, inaccurate, and features I used regularly were removed sequentially from each app with each update.
Dreamweaver CC, Bridge CC, discontinuation of Fireworks, four Edge apps for cookie cutter designing (which don't even come close to Dreamweaver's capabilities)

But thankfully, Aptana was a good free replacement though - albiet no "live preview" but hey Dreamweaver CC wsiwyg wasn't too great anyway, so whatev's.

No consistency between interfaces, no ability to change font or icon sizing (for all apps - "some" doesn't count - and only "acommodates" retina, not "any size"), removal after removal of features, and tighter and tighter integration into cloud based privacy invading "features" that have nothing to do with production work flows

Photoshop does video? What? Lightroom can't be shared - and does video? What?
Bridge can't do exports? Illustrator STILL only has 220" max document sizes?

Illustrator STILL has no document recovery?

Ai CC crashes so much that it would have been nice to not have to start over - and the weak reply from Staff and FanBoys of manual or auto save every few minutes - no really?

I'm stupid and never thought of that, but it kills your undo's and do you only make a document change every two minutes?
When you're flying through a design "on a roll" you can make dozens of changes in two minutes and "BOOP" crash at 1:58.

So it turns out "bleeding edge" software offerings is stupid. So Okay, I'll wait a month and THEN update.. but wait, why am I paying monthly again?

Oh right, it's for the "benefit" of constantly new software. But now the onus is on me to check the forums for issues and problems with every update right? But I have to wait a month for other poor subscribers to be our live production - and yet - beta testers. Harsh.

So...
Aptana is a great replacement for dreamweaver gurus who require php and asp and mysql and and and and - but don't require wysiwyg

oh wait, it's free and uses 1/5th of the resources.

Turns out windows Explorer (or the Finder) work as well as Bridge CC does, and actually the built in OS has more features.

Lightroom 4.4 I may keep since it's still offered as a box product with a standard license.

Does anyone really even understand just what the hell like a million apps of "edge" is for?"
Chripes, make it all one app already - oh wait, you did, dreamweaver, but uh, Okay.

Ps, AI, are getting replaced with Corel, I'm just working through the learning curve. (i like that i can customize the interface on any resolution monitor - and it uses native windows protocols that adobe in other threads says it simply cannot do?) - and document sizes are "unlimited" - it renders significantly faster than Ai, and PS.
Did I mention you can own it?

and Indesign? Yup, working with Quark 10 now and it's pretty nifty. Does everything I need - just have to verify if it can do data importing.

Did I mention you can own it?

Count the days Adobe, after 20 years or being an Adobe slave, and knuckling under your consistent removal of everything I need to have a smooth workflow, my purchase and rental of your garbage is numbered.

I'm sick of paying more for less, getting buggy updates, being held hostage by a softwware company, and getting more and more features of fluff that have nothing to do with core quality and efficiency. It's bizare that you soak resources to reinvent the wheels you already have instead of making them better, faster...

Adobe,

You used to be so very awesome. You essentially killed your competition.
Then you became jerks to everyone, and now you're at the as*hole level.

And guess what?
Your competition lives, and is gaining market share - and me.
So good luck with Edge, and FrankenShop.

I so very badly want a refund. But thanks to your new model - I have nothing to refund.
I wish I could run my business like that - but then again, if I did?
I'd have no clients.

[stylish_athlete15B9]

Microsoft thought they were too big to fail as well. Look at them now. Scrambling to stay alive in the personal consumer market place. Do not even try to work with Text in Photoshop CC. It is so buggy it will have your tearing your hairout and these bugs have been there Since CS6.

[MyCoalescence]

Ive been using adobe for 10 years. Im a few months from my BFA in graphic design. I have never owned adobe but always used at the school. With their student licensing I was going to get all I need in a few months which you can use for commercial use but...then when I came back to school a few months ago they had CC (crazy cloud) on some computers. I was thinking wait, didnt they just make cs 6 like, counting my fingers less than a year ago... YEP. CC at best should be cs 6.5! In the chaos ive been asking every professional and teacher I know about what they think of cc. The news is not good. Turns out students dont want to pay per month even when at student prices.

The last few weeks ive been looking for any alternatives to adobe. The first few things I heard of cc sounded nice, but that was a sugar coating. When I blew that off I went from worried, to horrified to wanting to start a strike. I had such high hopes for adobe but as my economics classes tought me they have become a lazy monopolist. They start charring more, producing less, being less efficient and charging more to convince the public with add its just fine. So I looked long and hard for an adobe replacement. As you all know there is no one replacement to adobe, they are top in 2d, 3d, video, audio and web development. I took hard looks at 2 companies that offer solutions to some of adobes programs.

Did i mention you can buy them as cds with perpetual licencing. I looked at several top 10 alterantives to graphic design programs. I saw 2 componies come up again and again and again. Serif and Corel. Many of adobe competators are doing massive discounts and pushing their products own faster since cc.

Serif is a Euro company. It has versions of illustrator, photo shop, muse, indesign, and a few other but those are what im interested in. They have several things going for them besides cds and licencing. Unlike most you can free download with out a credit card a lite version of their previous versions. I downloaded and tested vs adobe cs 6 and cs 2. They were very similar to cs2 but its free with no trial time, you keep it for ever. The full version is probably closer to cs 3 or 4. Not bad considering most their programs are 70-100$. So for the price of just dreamweaver I can get programs that fill the bare needs. Overall decent but id consider them high end hobby or low end profesional.

Corel is canadian and doing well. They are like the borg but on a smaller budget than microsoft. They absorb many small->medium good companies like winzip. I was blown away when i saw that. Im not a corel user but studied enough about them I have a good idea. They have an awsome business model now. You have the 3 options you need. Buy cd + license for a flat fee and free cloud, or same + premium cloud for 100/year, or just subscription cloud based for 200/year. Yes I said 200$/year and that is for the whole corel draw suite! Ok let me break that down more. Their standard buisiness model still exists and they say they are not changing that in the forseeable future but you get a small free cloud for a few more free features, no big deal. The standard + premium cloud is 100/year and you automatically get the newest edition update by update and when it comes out and have more fonts and a few other things. The thing is they generally put out new versions every 2 years so thats 100x2=200$ which is the exact same cost as upgradeing version to version. So inessence you pay exactly the same but have "cc" benefits and no down sides. The last option of just cloud subsctiption is much like adobe cc. You pay 200/year and get the upgrades and bonus stuff but no large single payment but no licensing. I think they are testing the waters to see what customers really want. So here is an examples, say you are with corel for 4 years right after their newest version. I will break down the different ways to pay.

Say you just want the newest version ever 2 editions like with adobe. Pay 500 for drawsuite x6 and then 500 again for drawsuite x8 =1000

Say you want to get every edition. Pay 500 for x6 then 200 (40%) for x7 and 200 (40%) for x8 =900

Say you want to get every edition and premium cloud. Pay 500 for x6 and 100/year X 6 =600 so 500+600=1100

Say you want just subscription. Pay 200/year X 6= 1200

So which you do depends on will you stay with corel for 3 editions or not. If less do the subsciption and if more do the standard + premium cloud. They gave you options and flexability, corel wins. The only thing they dont have is rent to own.

Coreldraw vs illustrator. For the most part they both get the same things done. They both have some nice unique features but as some stated adobe got more into flashy than making you work faster. Overal the few things corel does not do are not needed. Corel is simpler, more intuitive, user friendly and more customizable.

Photoshop vs paint-shop. Photoshop has no equivilent in photo editing. Corels is inbetween photoshop and photoshop elements. May just have to live with a 70% photoshop with corel.

Web creator vs muse. They do just about the same thing but I have more trust in corel.

Overall the more I read about corel the more im likeing it. Im giving adobe 6 months to change from forcing CC and if not my new home will be corel. Sorry adobe you did the same thing as xbox one or forcing us online and not letting us have cd and corel is doing samething as playstation and picking up the pieces of that catastrophe.

[becusa]

If Corel had a Mac version it would be a no brainer.

Quark 10 is pretty good, stable and you own it - bought it when it was released - feels strange going back to a program we used for years.

I am truly disgusted at Adobe - but honestly, I am absolutely amazed there has not been more of an outcry from the creative crowd.

[John T Smith]

>amazed there has not been more of an outcry

This thread has over 1400 messages http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1205851

[Phillip_M_Jones]

And, Plus I am sure Twitter, and Facebook as well. But Adobe don't give a rats behind. The only thing that will put a crimp in their style is for people to refuse to subscribe and find other products in place of Adobe products. When it hurts them in pocketbook only then will it make a difference.  IF they would give users a Choice to buy what they want or subscribe there wouldn't be an out cry. So Far MS is taken this route, they provide Subscription at an affordable cost. Plus providing hard copy for those that want to own.

[gmetrail]

Thank you for your detailled post and analysis. Our pricing was actually set so that over a 5 year period, you would have the same cost between upgrading every version, getting on premium membership or renting the software from the get go, to provide users the choice they deserve.

In case you have any question regarding CorelDRAW, you can check our community at CorelDRAW.com. There doesn't seem to be a way to directly contact each other through these forums, but my ID on the CorelDRAW community is gmetrail. I would appreciate a further exchange if possible.

Gérard @ Corel

PS: I don't expect this post to remain very long in this forum 😉

[becusa]

When is the Mac version going to be ready? I'm sure Corel would win substantial market share, but it would have to be sooner rather than later.

Many Mac users won't entertain using a PC emulator, or God forbid, an actual PC.

[pwillener]

Gérard M. wrote:

PS: I don't expect this post to remain very long in this forum 😉

Why; do you want me to delete it?

[gmetrail]

Simply because I've noticed my previous posts getting deleted rather quickly.

[John Waller]

Gérard M. wrote:

There doesn't seem to be a way to directly contact each other through these forums,

Click on anyone's forum handle (forum user name) then, on their profile page, in the RHS grey column under "Actions", click Send Private Message.

How do I access Private Messages?

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/416492

[gmetrail]

Thank you John.

[Noel Carboni]

Gérard M. wrote:

Our pricing was actually set so that over a 5 year period, you would have the same cost between upgrading every version

Adobe has an offer of their own that accomplishes that...

https://creative.adobe.com/plans/offer/photoshop+lightroom

Gérard, some time ago I worked to ensure my commercial plug-ins are compatible with Corel's products, and I found that the Corel product line is kind of confusing...  You've got PaintShop (I still need to evaluate X6).  You have PHOTO-PAINT, but only available as part of your CorelDraw suite.  It doesn't seem to know much about GPUs, isn't available for Mac, and cannot be bought separately from the suite.  I remember thinking the technology reminded me of what Photoshop was like 5 to 10 years ago.  There's also a PhotoImpact X3, which seems to be defunct, sort of, though you still seem to sell it...

Edit: Corrected an error where I mistakenly said PaintShop was 32 bit only.

-Noel

[gmetrail]

The latest version of PaintShop Pro that was released this fall is available as both a 32-bit and a 64-bit version. Regarding PHOTO-PAINT, yes, it is made for Windows (on Macs, you need BootCamp or a virtual machine) and yes, it is not available as a stand-alone product, mainly because the vast majority of the PHOTO-PAINT users are also CorelDRAW users and that both products are designed to be used together (Corel actually had Graphics Suite long before Adobe launched its Creative Suite). Regarding the GPU support, we do spend a lot of effort on performance based on what our users do / need, and one of the key drivers is to maintain a very low system requirement so that users don't have to upgrade the hardware when a new version of the software comes out.

Gérard

[MyCoalescence]

Corel does have many mac compatible programs.Painter, CorelCad, AfterShot, and more. The other programs as CorelDraw Suite and Techincal Draw Suite Im sure they are working on making them mac compatible. As gerard said its far from impossible and actually not hard to get corel to work on macs. Honestly though people need to stop letting adobe and apple push them around telling them you arnt a creative professional without adobe and macs. Its like they are saying you arnt professional unless you pay 50%-200% more for your computer and programs. Does that make any sense, no. Its marketing. Im not saying the products are not better in ways but I know they are not 2x as good!

For 800$ I can get a high end tower consumer gaming computer that has everything I need and more. Then if I throw in the all inclusive CorelDraw Technical Suite (draw, photo paint, website creator, designer (3d rendering), for 1000, Painter for 430 and Paint-shop ultimate for 100 which is basically buying every corel product for 2d/3d ive spent 2330$ for for all my software/hardware and just need a domain name and bam im in business. While the equivalent in mac and adobe would be so much more. The cheapest imac is 1300 + adobe design and web suite cs6 for 1900 = 3200 which is 50% more. Did I forget to say the 800$ computer will be about 50% better than the 1300$ imac because its upgradeable and not an all in one?

800 comp + corl draw 500 + painter 430 + paint-shop ultimate 100 =1800

imac 1300 + design standard 1300 =2600 still about 50% more.

Ok corel subscription vs CC over 6 years

200/year for draw suite 6x200 =1200, painter 430 + 2 upgrades at 200 each, 200x2= 400 = 830, and paint shop ultimate for 100 and 2 editions for 80 each is 80x2= 160 +100 = 260, 1200 + 830 + 260 = 2290 for 6 years and cloud

600/year x 6 years = 3600 again why pay 60% more

Lets throw the computer back in 2290 + 800 = 3090 corel

3600 + 1300 = 4900 again like 60% more. Does this make sense to any one why you should pay 60% more for products that may only be 10-25% better? O right its pretigue and branding your paying for the same as your iphone.

Serif is a procumer option. Consider them 70% replacement for adobes 4 core items, photoshop, illustrator, indesign and dreamweaver/muse but much cheaper.

Xara worked with corel for a few years are there closest competitor. There products are professional, cheaper than corel but corel has an edge of them in a ways.  Consider them a 80% replacement for adobe.

Corel has many good products also for video, audio, 3d, consider them a 90% replacement for adobe.

[MyCoalescence]

Adobes major security break 2 times in a few weeks by the same group is unexcusable. The hackers could be setting up a zero day attack. I they exploit a weakness you were unaware of and you have 0 days to prepare. The more you think about it the worse it gets. Consider that just adobe flash is on over 95% all computers. Many know the flash player has many issues and if the right one was found it could potentially be used to eploit 95% of on line computer. Besides that is that adobe cant patch its holes left by the hackers. I know offense generally beats defense but to get hacked again is just laughable. This is just 1 more nail in the coffin for cash cow and 1 more reason I refuse to subscribe to cc. To have nearly 3 million customers have their information compromised is unbelivable bad. Consider that adobe has between 12-15 million costomers and about 25-20% are compromised. That should be having everyone cancel subscriptions to crazy cloud.

I was asking my 2 graphic design teachers what they think about CC. They both independently said some similar things. Both imediatlys said it was so adobe could make more money. Both suggested against it in favor of any CS. Both are hoping in the next few years a real contender will step up to adobe. When I asked about other componies their main responce was "use professional tools". They really didnt want to say if I should use others but they as always they said the tools are less important than your own skills. They said if I could get the same thing done with other soft ware providers and like it better like interface and eas of use then try it. For free lance you could use what ever you want. For working with a team you will all need to use the same programs so you can flawlessly share files. One said that adobe is in a similar position that quark was in 15 years ago. Quark beame big because it ran better and was cheaper than adobes page maker (aka ragemaker) and others. Quark became the standard DTP because printers liked it and required designers and customers to use it. They became overconfident, started treating customers badly, was not easy to design work in and costing much more than competators. Sound familier? Adobe is in the same monopolistic possition. Adobe swept in with indesign that was more user friendly and designers/customers just jumped to the next nearest good thing. Printers got angry because they lilked quark more but designers said well tough this is what we are using. It has become to big it does not need to the most effiecient in cost/productivity, have good customer service or as shown with CC care at all what their customers think.

I hope that competaters to adobe step up to this chance and show the world what they can do. I have high hopes because a monopoly is bad for every one. It makes things more expensive by stopping competition and provides less and slower inovations. Adobe has had almost total control for about 13 years. I like options and want to see other componies with just as good of product show what they can do while costing much less. I know they can people just need to give them a chance. As we gave a chance to adobe and apple and they grew lots.

[Noel Carboni]

MycCoalescence wrote:

Both imediatlys said it was so adobe could make more money.

Well, we certainly wouldn't want any company to make money.  That would just be wrong.

-Noel

[becusa]

I have no problem with a company making money - I do have a problem paying so much more for a less secure, less stable, inferior product sold by a opportunistic monopoly who are leveraging their customers safe in the knowledge that they have few alternatives.

Surprised at a few of the somewhat snarky comments on here.

[MyCoalescence]

Snarky sounds like a good name got a small pet, come here snarky, o good snarky.

I have no problem with a company making money but when that becomes their focus and not customer serivice, quality, honesty and being ethical is when I have a problem. Adobe fallen for the love of money. They love money more than their customers and reputation. A componies reputation should be its biggest concern. If they can keep a good reputation that are probably satisfying customers and competetors can respect them even if they dont like them. As becusa said they are leverageing their possition in the market which is proof they have a monoply to try to force us into cc. This is a mofia blackmail move. Its an offer you cant refuse.

Corel is running more sales. I wonder if they always runs sales. Ive seen this before with come companies that do sales say 90% of the time so they can always say they have sales of 10-40% off. Its an interesting sales tactic but who am i to complain. The sales are not the same and with different side things like. The next 2 weeks many items have free shipping and before it was some free cloud storage. Any how many alternative software providers have many sales going on since may. Where are your sales adobe? We we undeserving or are you too good for it?

I was wrong about the hackers. The news releases this week said the amount hacked was actually 38 million! and the reporter doing the story had exclusive access to some of the files hacked and said the amount partially hacked is actually 150million! Now if they can figure this out why did adobe mislead us saying 2.8 million. Ither adobe lied or is icompotent. Ither way is not good. This is a PR nightmare for adobe. If they didnt know how many but figured in the millions they should have just said its in the millions but have not determined how many yet. Be honest.

Adobe with cs 5.5 promised it would be the first of yearly upgrades and it is the only 1/2 upgrade that exists. CC is not a half upgrade, not even a 1/4. It offered almost no new features.

Adobe with cs 6 said customers must have the latest edition to upgrade to the newest one at upgrade price. They also garanteed there would be a cs 7. They broke their word again. I guess they found it easier to discontinue cs 7 than keep their word.

[Axiom DeSigns]

The reality, regardless of motivation, is that Adobe has rarely been interested in the customer.
The software industry at large is also at fault for this. Windows 8.1 just embeds your files and activities into a datamining cloud where we get constant ads for things whether we paid for "ad free" or not.
Google, Facebook, Apple, MS, and Adobe all lump us into the same profit making regime without us making a dime and they still find ways to charge us more for it.

I don't mind paying for improvements, but when a company has a product that requires updates to stay abreast of technology, it's not just simply "released", it's bundled with other restrictions and expenses that makes the upgrade completely "overpriced" for what it is.

inDesign CS6 is 32bit... CC it's 64. Illustrator has no Canadian dictionary, but CC does. Other "little" things that should have just been "updated" are instead a "feature" - we can thank Apple iPhone's "cut copy and paste" for this BS. Kind of like removing exporting from Bridge CC is a "feature". I especially like how "stacks" can't "be sent" as the group of files that they are to photoshop for even a panorama stiching. You'd think that would be an obvious "feature" of how "grouped files" are treated.

But nope.

CC offers "everything" for a fairly reasonable price - right up until you don't like the "forever" upgrades which really just turn you into a beta tester and ruin your workflow.
Or if you want things one at a time, you pay more than they are worth in perspective. $20 a month for PS and $20 a month for Illustrator and $20 a month for inDesign =$60
But I can have it all for $60?

Kill Bridge functionality, kill Dreamweaver for forty versions of cookie cutter "Edge" products.

Upload all your things to the coud so we can data mine it.

But stop paying and you are screwed as all your file, code and data are all branded and stamped adobe.

Adobe got to where they are because we bought into them, and they have made it plainly obvious that they no longer "need" us, because we are stupid lemmings.

It's like we're continuing to return to an abusive spouse in hopes they'll treat us better.

The Corel and Quark learning curve is steep - not in function - but in usage.
It's completely unintuitive. But it's far faster software, with far more customization options - albiet the GUI is a complete mess.

The funny thing is though that I am getting far more done now in spite of it, than I have in the last 12 months of suffering through botched CC updates.

When you produce an image that's 28ft long, and it's short by a foot because illustrator CC did something to the output file... It's horrifying and expensive to correct.
And with such high quality customer service from Adobe, I feel soooo able to start a thread about the issue. So I don't bother.
Instead I just pay and shut up so I don't get verbally assaulted by an Adobe staff member.

Well.
I've had enough.

No more money for Adobe from me.

I've managed to snag a used CS6 master license to be able to modify "old files", I've got corel and xara and quark and aptana - and I've striped "skydrive" off the windows 8.1 and Adobe and MS can go suck it.

I've got lightroom stripped down to just feed library, developer and maps, and once Capture One get's it sh*t together I'll make the switch.

In the end, even though it's tedious to make the switches, it's FAR less tedious than staying.
Turns out, I have extra money now too.

[PECourtejoie]

My coalescence, I'm glad you compare Corel's offering to Adobe's, does that mean that there is an equivalent to After Effects, or a non linear editor sturdy enough to make movies, or to the web applications?

It would only be relevant for a print shop (but expect frowns from your photocompositor), running on PCs...

[MyCoalescence]

Glad to help how I can with trying to understand whats out there. If any one comes across anything they thing is great write it down and whats nice about it.

Video and audio i have pretty much 0 experience in and have not looked up even reviews of programs for anyone. I do know that corel did buy Avid who are to my understanding the top top company for audio and maybe video. They have not added any avid software to their corel lines though yet. I saw that corel does have several video/audio programs but again dont know what would be good as such a program. From every one ive talked to about after affects they say their is no alternative to after effects. They also say the same thing about photoshop though but i disagree. Corel painter is from everything ive read and from actual illustrators I know they all say painter is better for digital illustration. For photo editing corel at least has paint shop which appears to be a mid grade between photohop and photoshop elements which is saying alot considering the next best after that is worse that elements. Adobe users are like drug addicts and dont realize there are alternatives that are still good out there. I admit I was one of them before a few months ago. I went through software selection with blinders on. I only saw adobe and had only heard of a handful of others and they were always talked about as though they were extinct when in fact many are still going strong. I learned i had been lied to and that adobe is not king of the world is all things software. Standard does not = best. They are arguably best in a few, very good in many and ok in some.

Corel has been quick to counter several of adobes bad moves since may and adobe has dont very little. A mark of a good business is not that they never make a mistake but its that they fix it and make it right and apologize. Corel and xara are in my mind the best 2 besides adobe that provide several programs as alternatives to adobes. Also they are both extremely compatible with illustrator and photo shop for importing and export. That is a such a key feature. Most other programs especially the cheap ones cant support adobe at all.

Axiom so you have used corel and xara. Tell me your opinon on how you think there programs compare to each adobe product. Of course each program will have its own unique features but im talking the important stuff. Despite many hours of research and videos I have not used corel or xara so not expert on finer points.

Talked to a budy at a design shop today. He said he convinced them to switch to cc. Said the cc updates were small and minor but didnt say how big the upgrades were. Only thing he could defend about cc was "your up to date" and things like font kit. Honestly he is just out of college and maybe doesnt realize many pros are 1-4 editions behind. The said its such a pain having to save a file as what your customer and can use and them saving it for what you can use. It not a big deal since it takes only a few seconds. Really just tell your customers what format you need. For illustrator I save files as editable pdf and if for some reason that does not work save as an older version. Ask your client what they use and send them that. Or be safe and send them a pdf, original file and save as older version a few editions back and give to them as a package so they can view, open and work with pretty much regardless. Wow that was such a bid time saver good thing we are all cc... and I didnt take the 10 seconds to save it 2 extra times. I also brought updo my buddy about perpetual lisencing and his thoughts. He said well if your going to be a professional you just need to build the cost into your budget. My thoughts in my head were are you so sure adobe will be around in 40 years when you retire? Who knows what things will be like next 10 years, year, month or week let alone 40 years and hoping adobe is still around so you can open your cc files. Its possible none of the software componies around now will exist in 40 years and Im suppost to just hope and assume adobe will be alive still and that they dont have and even more controling idea than cc? No thank you. I live in america land of the free. I will hold on to my freedoms as much and as long as possible. Like the movie men in black "you can have my gun (perpetual lisence) when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" alien "adobes" responce "your proposal is acceptable" and they then try to kill us at the alien did...