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Scared of CC

Guest
May 06, 2013 May 06, 2013

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Not sure is I am in the right forum for this

As a long time Adobe user CC scares me...

I live in a country without decent internet....

Adobe has already demonstrated in Australia that pricing can go up and down as it sees fit ...always to the detriment of customers

A lot of the world is still in an economical downturn ...$600 per year is not a saving...it is a considerable increase for many

$600 per year will quickly move to $1000.... (I have just noticed in my country I can only get the team version???)

Once adobe determines which programs are popular an additional cost tier will be introduced to pay for that product

once you move over to a subscription based service you are addicted... if you give up subscription you can no longer edit projects ....if you own a version ...you can always go back to a project without activation issues...

As for not providing updates and bug fixes that is just unconscionable

Adobes thinking here is that of a monopoly.... it will start forcing the independent free lancer to look elsewhere ... it will encourage pirating..... and in places where internet is not assured guarantee creative discrimination.. for non profits and groups fighting political oppression a subscription based services could really limit there freedom of speech.... if you cant connect to the internet ..how can you produce content?


Adobe please think hard about this

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Explorer ,
May 06, 2013 May 06, 2013

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Although I am not afraid of the change - I do find it a major failure on Adobe's thinking.

I just read an article where you all talk about how your revenue for your stand alone products has dropped in relation to your subscription model for the past year over year quarters (meaning your subscription revenue is increasing).  This is a loaded statistic.  Seeing as how your subscription models in the long run costs more than outright purchasing a copy of the Creative Suite from one version to the next.

Additionally I do not want to EVER store my project files or master files on 3rd party hosted servers. Where because of some lame Terms of Service - Adobe now owns the rights to a copy of anything I upload which can be used as Adobe's discretion and whims without due compensation to the file owners (and you give Adobe permission in the Terms by accepting the use of their "service product").

Adobe is getting to be more and more lazy.

If I have a large project that takes several weeks or months - I do not EVER change software versions during that timeframe.  As things like color rendering or functionality change from one version to the next.  This new approach (very similarto how Google handles its product - which I hate) just makes sweeping changes and screws the end User over without time to adapt or finish a current project.  This is a load of bulls*** at its finest.  Google has regularly pushed out features and updates to Gmail and Docs (among other services) that have broken OR radically changed and altered how things are done.  Mostly in negative directions that are worse for the end-User.

I will be moving away from Photoshop and Illustrator and Dreamweaver and Flash in the future.  Adobe will no longer get my money OR that of Employers when I am asked to purchase software.  I used to advocate until recently the use of Flash for so many more things that t5he general public gripes about - banner ads - pop ups - video - and gaming - and that Flash has so many more uses - education and learning - tutorials - control level interfaces - application development.  I will no longer speak favorably about Flash.  I will migrate fully over to newer open technologies - more than likely uninstall any Flash plugins or products.  And again - migrate away form Adobe as much as and as soons as possible.

I will look into using alternatives to both Dreamweaver and Photoshop - which I have not for the longest time due to their superiority as products compared to anyt rival software products available.  But I can definitely get by without those 2 products if I have to.  As I said any future money spent will NOT be given to Adobe's online failure of products.

As for being Graphic Designer with a need for InDesign use - I hate Quark enough to NOT jump to using it - however - I may simply migrate away from publishing period - thank you for that Adobe.

Video editing - as horrible as the new version of Final Cut Pro is - as Apple seems to cater to watered down general purpose Users lately instead of professionals that need functional tools - I will probably migrate back to using it - just to NOT subscribe to your future web-based offerings.

Full Production that you all cater to - IS NOT VIABLE from a Web Browser interface.  I should not have to push my content through Adobe's servers in order develop a project for a client. This touches on my comments above - Adobe has no right to any of my content or that of my clients.   This is very unacceptable.

If you go this route - you've lost a 20+ year customer.  And hope that others follow suit and boycott the hell out of your company and products.  I hope your revenue drops like a rock - that people wise up and stop bending over for sweeping corporate decisions that make no sense - and that you either change your new found approach or simply go bankrupt beacuse some executives made decsions with their heads buried deep in someone's...in the sand.

So thank you very much for making the bulk of the software for the Industry I've worked in for the past 20 years a Monopoly and then in one sweep shutting the whole thing down and charging us significantly more for an inferior product.

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Explorer ,
May 06, 2013 May 06, 2013

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Jp Cooper wrote:

Additionally I do not want to EVER store my project files or master files on 3rd party hosted servers. Where because of some lame Terms of Service - Adobe now owns the rights to a copy of anything I upload which can be used as Adobe's discretion and whims without due compensation to the file owners (and you give Adobe permission in the Terms by accepting the use of their "service product").

This is true.  One reason, in addition to the goshawful change of forum software from WebX to JIVE that Adobe's Photography forum has died on the vine.

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New Here ,
May 06, 2013 May 06, 2013

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From now on, I'm referring to the new policy as the CON Policy (Cloud or Nothing).

Avoid the CON.

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Community Beginner ,
May 07, 2013 May 07, 2013

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I wonder if this is why Adobe's Chief Technology Officer, Kevin Lynch has recently bolted from Adobe and gone on to Apple. Does he see Adobe as a sinkng ship, or an outfit that will be hit with class-action lawsuits, total collapse....?   Did Bain Capital(Mitt Romney's old company) put this together?  I guess we will all find out soon enough.

Good to know there are other viable alternatives, if you just use your head, not lose it like Adobe.

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New Here ,
May 07, 2013 May 07, 2013

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I don't know who's idea this was at Adobe, but it seems to me they just handed Corel and Xara a golden opportunity to recapture a slice of the market.  Did they even send out a survey to customers before they did this asking how we might feel about it?  Because I know I never got that email.

Look, I'm a freelance artist and 3D modeller.  I'm not a big business, I don't have a big software budget.  Truth is I usuallyonly update my software every other version that comes out.  That means I might have skipped CS6 and waited for CS7.    I just finished upgrading my 3D modelling software which cost me several thousand dollars, that pretty much blew my budget for now.  This cloud thing means small businesses like me have to deal with a recurring monthly expense, whatever Adobe decides to charge.  Sure, its $49.95 now... but what happens when they decide they want more capital for something, new product or maybe they just want to give everyone a fat raise... my fees go up an there's nothing I can do, I either pay or I'm out of business.  What about all these increasing hacker attacks.  Honestly, sometimes I just unplug the internet.  Funny thing about that, I unplug that modem and suddenly I'm invulernable to all the hackers out there.  I can work without being disturbed (and beleive me, when your work depends on your creativity, not being disturbed is a blessing).  Why should I make my ability to work even more dependent on the internet, what's the advantage to me?  None, but it does put me more at risk.   Adobe needs to realize that "the cloud" may be great for somebody who buys mp3s they want to be able to play from their tablet, smart phone or PC where ever they may be... but when it comes to someone like me doing 3D renders or textures for 3D models or illustrations for a small press project this "cloud" stuff is useless.  Get it... USELESS.  It doesn't increase my productivity, it doesn't help me work, it doesn't offer me anything.   My productivity matters to me, because I get paid on commission, I'm not drawing a paycheck that I get whether I'm actually working or playing Farmville... my pay depends on what I actually produce.   Anything that threatens that or puts that at risk in any way is a big concern for me.  On the other hand, buying software that I then OWN gives me, among other things, peace of mind.  I own it, regardless of whether the internet is up, down or in flaming ruins because of hackers... software I own on my computer will continue to run just fine.  It will continue to work whether I can afford the latest upgrades or version.   Not so with this cloud stuff.

Bottom line for me as a freelance artist, I don't see any advantage to me with this cloud thing, all the advantages go to Adobe.  They did this purely because it benefits them and are basically telling us, the customers, "deal with it or deal with it, we don't care."   Fine, I'll take my business elsewhere.  Other graphics programs out there may not be as powerful (yet) or offer all the same features (yet), but my copy of CS5 still works just fine, charges no fees and I'll be happy to support Corel, Xara, (hell even GIMP) if it means in the future I'll still be able to buy software I actually OWN once I pay for it.

Rent to own is for suckers, it was true at those rent to own furniture stores and its just as true with software (and that is exactly what this cloud stuff really is, rent to own software; you don't actually own anything).

I suspect I'm not going to be alone in looking for alternatives to Adobe products from now on.  If that means Adobe suddenly finds itself losing business... well.... deal with it, and thanks for not caring Adobe.

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Guest
May 06, 2013 May 06, 2013

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it seems that I have more to worry about than I initially thought....wow .... I am really scared

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 08, 2013 May 08, 2013

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JP, I understand your concerns, but some of your impressions might be off.

Nothing forces you to upload your images to the cloud. You select which ones go there, in order to share them with customers with added functions like showing select layers.

Also, you select whether or not, or rather when updates are applied to the software. I may suggest perusing the creative cloud FAQ: http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html

Or if you want a third party view on some of the myths about creative cloud: 

http://prodesigntools.com/adobe-creative-cloud-myths.html

Hope this helps dispel part of your worries.

Could I see the part of the TOS that made it sound like "all your pixels are belong to Adobe", 

so that I can look at the legalese?

Thanks!

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Explorer ,
May 08, 2013 May 08, 2013

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PECourtejoie wrote:


Could I see the part of the TOS that made it sound like "all your pixels are belong to Adobe",

so that I can look at the legalese?

Thanks!

Hello Pierre!  It's been a long time.  I hope you and yours are well.

Adobe's Agreement Terms are here:  (The ability to opt out used to not be in the agreement.  All the same, post a photo in any of Adobe's forums and it belongs to them.)

http://www.adobe.com/misc/terms.html

"

9.5 Licenses to Your Material. Adobe requires certain licenses from you with respect to Your Shared Material in order to operate and enable the Services. Accordingly, you grant the licenses to Your Shared Material as follows:

(a) For Your Shared Material that’s Shared in a public forum (such as discussion boards or public galleries that may be browsed by anyone with an internet connection, etc.), you grant Adobe a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to adapt, display, distribute, modify, perform, publish, reproduce, translate, and use Your Shared Material for the purpose of operating and improving the Services and enabling your use of the Services. You may revoke the license and terminate Adobe’s rights at any time by making it no longer Shared.

(b) For Your Shared Material that’s Shared in a public forum or shared privately with other Users of your choosing, you grant other Users a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, transferrable, and sublicensable license to display, distribute, perform, and reproduce Your Material, subject to Section 10 of these Terms. If you join or participate in a group that allows for sharing of Your Material within the group (such as a “group album” or shared workspace), then you also grant the Users within the group a license to adapt and modify Your Material that you have decided to share with such group. If you do not want to grant other Users these rights, then don’t Share Your Material with other Users.

(c) For Your Material that is shared privately with other Users of your choosing, you grant Adobe a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, transferrable, and sublicensable, license to distribute, modify, publish, reproduce, translate, and use Your Material for the purpose of operating and improving the Services and enabling your use of the Services."

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 13, 2013 May 13, 2013

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Paz, Jp, this extract from the Eula is what grands Adobe the right to host the file for you. At no point you do transfer ownership of the files. How would that be in Adobe's interest to do that?

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Mentor ,
May 13, 2013 May 13, 2013

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What extract?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 13, 2013 May 13, 2013

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Both what JP referred to, and what Paz quoted for the forums. You'll read stuff similar on dropbox terms of service.

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Explorer ,
May 14, 2013 May 14, 2013

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PECourtejoie wrote:

Paz, Jp, this extract from the Eula is what grands Adobe the right to host the file for you. At no point you do transfer ownership of the files. How would that be in Adobe's interest to do that?

Pierre,

Take a look at the very beginning of the 'agreement' via the link I listed.  Notice there is a date and it says that this new agreement takes precedence over the old agreement.  Back when I first noticed the language granting Adobe rights to users' creative material I do not remember there being any option to opt out.  The agreement back then went so far as to grant Adobe rights to use and/or edit other's creative material with technology that didn't/doesn't even exist  - yet.  It seemed pretty permanent ownership for Adobe.

I've run a couple of forums myself.  Never did I make membership conditional upon myself becoming owner of anyone's creative content.  I've never noticed such language on any other photography forum I've ever agreed to join, either.

Back then I had just posted what may be the best photograph I've ever taken or ever will take.  And then I came across language saying it belonged to Adobe because I had posted it on their forum...

(So I deleted all the images on my own website server that had been posted on Adobe's sites.  I'm finally relieved to see language that indicates that now that action would be enough to retain my own ownership of my own creation.)

That, combined with the banishment (for life, apparently) of so many prior forum regulars who complained too vociferously about Adobe's transfer to JIVE forum format was my reason for pretty much abandoning Adobe's forums.  As I mentioned earlier, when word got out about Adobe claiming ownership, Adobe's photography forum pretty much dried up.  Of course, JIVE may have had as much to do with it as anything.

Why would Adobe want to own others' creative content?  Adobe was, at that time, beginning to set up a photo image sales service along the lines of Getty Images, I-Stock, ShutterStock.

I've known photographers who have been shocked to learn that images they have submitted in photography contests suddenly belong to the companies holding the contest.  Sure, there's one winner, but everyones' images now belong to that company.  The same holds true when submitting works of art in painting competitions. 

Adobe creates wonderful products.  But their corporate actions often smell.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 14, 2013 May 14, 2013

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Paz, at one point, indeed, Adobe offered stock photography houses some visibility in Bridge, but I don't recall Adobe ever owning such a business. It would have been foolish for them to claim ownership on the files...

IANAL, so I asked and received the confirmation by Adobe Legal that the terms about the files for creative cloud are there only to allow Adobe to host your files, and give, if needed, a worldwide access to them.

I remember at one point that there was a place online that did check EULAs for abusive terms, but don't recall where it was, it might have been useful to have a third party review.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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Just want to correct a common misconecption about CC, demonstrated in this quote:

Full Production that you all cater to - IS NOT VIABLE from a Web Browser interface.  I should not have to push my content through Adobe's servers in order develop a project for a client. This touches on my comments above - Adobe has no right to any of my content or that of my clients.   This is very unacceptable.

This is NOT how it's going to work. The CC apps will be installed LOCALLY and you won't have to upload your files anywhere. All you will have to do is "activate" them online once every 30 days (like you do now when you first install them).

Now, whether or not that's acceptable or the price changes are reasonable is another question...

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Mentor ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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What happens when Adobe Knocks on your Interenet door to phone home and your Internet connection is on the fritz. (which about 80% of the US has to put up with daily.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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You only need a couple of minutes of internet connection to activate.

Surely you will have that once every 30 days? You don't need a always-on

connection...

Also, if you have the yearly subscription it will work for 99 days even if

you're offline.

People should really read the information more carefully before freaking

out:

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/faq.html#how-works

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New Here ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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The problem with what Adobe has done is not the "phone home" thing, its the hidden cost in the subscription and they way it puts their customers on the hook for endless costs.  Let's be clear folks, this isn't really about the "cloud".  This is about a fundamental shift from producing a product we bought, to a service we rent.  References to the cloud by Adobe are just marketing hype.

The bottom line is this, you are now forced to rent their software as though it were a service rather than buying a licensed copy as a product.  For some, the subscription might allow them to use Adobe products because they can afford the monthly subscription but balked at the higher cost of buying the software.  However, as I've said before, in the long run the subscription will end up costing the user MORE, not less.  For those of us using Adobe products professionally (and seriously, who else but professionals needs this kind of software), the cost was less of a problem.

I don't have a problem with them offering the subscription option, when it was just that... an option.  Had Adobe chosen to offer both, we wouldn't be here expressing concern, anger and outrage.  What I object to is that we can no longer buy a copy of the software as we have in the past.  That puts us pretty much at the mercy of whatever Adobe decides to charge for the "service".  It makes it harder for me to manage my costs as a freelance artist, a cost I cannot realistically pass on to my clients so I get stuck making less money while a company that reported $4.1 billion in earnings for 2012 gets richer.  This isn't about the cloud, it isn't about a revolution in software.  Its about corporate greed plain and simple.

Frankly I think Adobe execs need to get their heads out of the "cloud" and reconnect with reality.  I need a product, not a service.  I need one time costs I can manage, not an umbilical cord that raises my costs and without offering me any real benefit.  This move comes at a time when many of us are still recovering from bad economies in the US and Europe.  What I need right now is stability, not sudden change.  I want software I can count on, not software that stops working if I can't pay the subscription this month because the economy is bad again.  Two years ago I was in exactly that position, for awhile I couldn't even afford internet service because of the economy and loss of income.  I managed to work my way out of it because I did have software that worked regardless, so I was able to keep working and earning money when and where I could.  Eventually I got back on my feet and am doing better now, not great, but the bills are paid.   Meanwhile a bunch of overpaid execs are sitting at a conference bragging about how great this is for them and lying to the rest of us about how great it will be for us.  Its bull, this change won't benefit me at all and if things get tight again it would mean I'd have no software to use to earn a living... I'd be flat out of business.  That means I can no longer rely on Adobe, which means I won't be using their "services" at all in the future.  I need a PRODUCT that I can count on and unfortunately Adobe has chosen to no longer be a source for that.

What's more interesting is that it isn't actually a monthly subscription, its an annual contract that costs about 50% of what the software originally did to purchase outright.  Why does Adobe think such an annual contract is a good thing to move towards when you look at cellphone companys that are moving away from contracts because customers hate them.  Has it not occurred to Adobe that once people start really figuring out what they've done, that they'll now have to buy into an annual contract for rental software the outrage we're seeing right now might be just the tip of the iceberg of the reaction later on?  

Adobe exec's need to stop sitting around congratulating themselves about how they are now "part of the cloud" and how this is going to help people "share creativity".  I don't SHARE my creativity, I SELL it to make a living.  I'm not using Adobe products to make collages of family photos and upload them to Facebook or Photobucket (the later has free built in tools for that anyway).  I used professional software to do professional work in order to earn a living.  No I wasn't getting rich, but for many of us life isn't about getting rich its about doing what we enjoy and keeping the bills paid.  Maybe Adobe forgot that's who many of us actually are, I'd say most, of us who have bought their products and supported their company for years.

It was fun while it lasted Adobe, sorry you decided to forget the customer base on who's loyalty you built your company.  Good luck with your "cloud".  As for myself, I'll be taking my future software needs and budget elsewhere to a provider that actually gets that I need a product I can depend on, not a "rental service" dependant on subscriptions and cloud connections.  That may well mean turning to software that doesn't provide all the professional tools I've been used to having, which will make my job harder.  But I'd rather deal with that and know that once I buy the software it will continue to work when I need it regardless of the internet, the cloud, or my finances; than deal with a subscription umbilical cord that if cut would literally put me out of work with no way to recover. 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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Not that's a good argument against this change. Hopefully some Adobe execs will hear and heed this cautionary tale (of which I'm sure there are a lot). If not, they're going to feel it via their wallet in the next couple of years, I'm afraid.

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Guest
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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I have posted a youtube video entitled "adobe creative cloud - cloud or nothing - why you should be scared" please let me know if you see it and I urge people to pass it around

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Mentor ,
May 10, 2013 May 10, 2013

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Yes but what if you connection just happens to be down at the time it decides to phone home. My Cable connection is apt to do just that.  I am constantly have to chand IP set up so that it use Comcast, or Google, or OpenDNS  just to keep connection alive.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 11, 2013 May 11, 2013

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Then try 5 minutes later... Really, I don't think that is a major issue.

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Mentor ,
May 11, 2013 May 11, 2013

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As it stands now CC already throws out warning every 5 minutes that it can not sync Files.

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New Here ,
May 11, 2013 May 11, 2013

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Its not the phone home thing that will be such a problem for people accessing the software.  But this move also means the only way to get the software will be through downloading it.  That's where poor or unreliable internet service is going to really create a problem.  Can you imagine trying to download a 1 GB install file on a dial-up connection.  Or a cable or DSL connection that has problems with signal strength that introduces errors and corruption of the file?  It doesn't seem that Adobe considered that either.  Despite all the media hype about smart phones and 3G and 4G networks and hotspots, not everyone has that or even has access to it.  They need to spend less time in NYC, DC, Seattle and LA and try visiting the rest of America where in many places those things are luxuries.

My biggest concern with the phone home issue is that, a) my experience with other software that tried this wasn't good.  In one case the software was later revised to disable the feature because there were so many issues and complications for people who changed / upgraded their computers (something as simple as adding a HD sometimes caused the software to report a false positive and stop working, add some RAM, same problem, any change in your hardware configuration could result in you being flagged as a "pirate", much less if you simply bought a new computer.  Or the problems with trying to run it via an emulator for Linux or OS X).  And b) it still gives Adobe a way to turn off your software for whatever reason, even if you have bought a perpetual license (assuming they went back to selling it in box but kept the "phone home" check; again, it mis-identifies you as a "pirate" and your software stops working til you sort it out, how may days of work can you afford to lose?  Especially a small business that doesn't have an IT dept. to deal with it).  In the past I wouldn't have considered that later point as an issue, but suddenly I'm a lot less trusting where Adobe is concerned.

Those kinds of problems are a nuissance when its a game or some other non-work related, non-essential software.  But for many of us who used Adobe products professionally, these were part of the tools of our trade.  That takes those issues from a nuissance to an income threatening problem.  Think of it this way.  Would anyone think telling a photographer they can no longer buy their camera equipment, they can now only rent it?  Can you imagine telling a carpenter or mechanic they can no longer buy their tools, they must now rent them instead?  Of course not, sounds silly.  Its the same thing here, for many of us as digital artists, illustrators, image editors, etc. Photoshop and other software had become an important tool of our trade.

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Community Beginner ,
May 11, 2013 May 11, 2013

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Phillip Jones wrote:

What happens when Adobe Knocks on your Interenet door to phone home and your Internet connection is on the fritz. (which about 80% of the US has to put up with daily.

I'd like to know where you got that 80% figure. Mine is seriously more reliable.

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