Still no supervision in the French and Spanish forums?

[Claudio_González1]

I forgot that threads are extremely short lived in this forum, and the discussion that really began within an unrelated thread, here

Pierre Courtejoie, "Shouldn't these links be removed as soon as possible?" #8, 27 Feb 2005 1:21 pm

has already gone to the Archives, where it is in danger of going to the limbus in the near future.

I still think that this is an important issue, and still wait to see any improvement in those forums showing that the messages by Pierre and myself on the subject have not fallen in a void. Although we both value and thank Neil Keller for his attempts to get some reaction in higher quarters, his attempts have unfortunately been a failure.

It is pathetic to see pages in the forums in Spanish with templates that are written in a mixture of English and a very bad Spanish. It is even more pathetic that JC stopped more than a year ago feeling authorized to introduce any non trivial change to improve this situation. The worst part is however to feel that there is no one listening, or at least willing to admit that there might be problems in those forums.

I feel very disappointed.

[Guest]

> It's going to be hard to have technical expertize for every program in every language.

good point. wonder if english is one of them...

[D__McCahill]

> I have read several messages at the other side proposing to open their own forum/whatever and continue living happily with their newsreader access and without moderation of any kind. The notion seems to be catching up

More power to them if they can do it. This was talked about before (the last fiasco) in some of the sections I visit. The problem is in getting the mass of users. And even if a critical mass is achieved, it is hard to maintain, because new users are harder to come by (to replace those who drop out for one reason or another). The fact that this place is Adobe's results in a steady flow of new users, who occasionally become regulars.

[Claudio_González1]

Don, this independent forum/whatever started as a FreeHand forum in this small underdeveloped country at the bottom of the world, long before I started visiting these forums, and it's still very active:

http://www.mmug.cl/index2.php

It has gained a well deserved reputation and has many regulars from other countries. The site even survived the virtual disappearance of Freehand and the complete disappearnce of Macromedia...

I mention this because I have the impression that in the ex MM forums there is a largish and very united community of users who enjoy their lack of moderators, and although they like the products they use, have a very negative opinion of Adobe itself, specially because of what they see as a lack of loyalty with their clients. Let's not forget that forums such as this

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid=39&catid=220&entercat=y

are full to the brim with justified complaints, mainly for the quality of service, although many of them talk simply of lack of service.

[Jacob Bugge]

I have just been through a period with a workload passing 100 hours per week. I have watched this thread every day until Saturday, though, but not during the days of final rush.

I still hope there is hope.

[Jacob Bugge]

So we did make it into the real new year.

However, the future seems rather hopeless, unless John is joking.

[Claudio_González1]

My dear friends,

The migration to the new forums has been repeatedly announced for "next April", and that next April is already here. I therefore think this is a good time to put an end to this very long and almost completely fruitless campaign.

During this time, and especially after the impending changes were announced, I have learnt many things about the way that the forums in Spanish developed to what they have been since I started my campaign. Now I understand why Adobe Spain has never fostered them, which in turn explains at least partially the low level of participation of Spanish speaking users of Adobe products in them. In contrast, participation in the ex-Macromedia forums in Spanish is considerably higher, although this will probably drop to very low levels because almost everyone accesses them using NNTP, which will be dropped.

The forces pushing for the final merge of both sets of Adobe forums are indeed strong, and they have changed completely the circumstances that gave birth to my campaign. It now seems almost certain that all localized forums will survive the fusion, although they will experience major changes. For example, it would seem that, at least initially, there will be just one forum per language, with no subdivisions in subforums. It would also seem that all messages already posted using NNTP will be imported with the single screen name of "Newsreade_user". Such things are likely to make the new localized forums difficult to use, to put it mildly. It is yet to be seen if they will manage to survive the changes.

However, not everything is lost. JC and his team have been most receptive to suggestions, objections, complaints and the like that I and others have posted regarding the forums in Spanish in the forum for commenting the new forums. Most important, there is some hope, however small, that the forums in Spanish may in the long run benefit from the forthcoming earthquake.

My final words in this thread are words of thanks: my very heartful and grateful thanks to everyone who has offered a helping hand in these over three years of battle. They are too many to try to name without running the risk of forgetting more than a few, which would be unfair. Without them, this discussion would have died a natural death years ago.

Thank you again, and I hope we will continue being in touch.

[Ramón_G_Castañeda]

>it would seem that, at least initially, there will be just one forum per language

Until that changes, I doubt there will be many contributors. :|

[Guest]

Ramón's point would be the only real correction I'd make as well. Bringing all the forums together is a huge task, that they need to do as simply as possible. Once that part is done, tweaking will begin. In the new software, it's pretty easy to rearrange things, create new subforums, and move topics into them.

One of the big discussions I would expect soon afterward would be how to best structure the Spanish forum so that the traffic is appropriately divided up. I would expect, for instance, that there would be a Photoshop forum, then, perhaps, another one for other image software such as Illustrator and Fireworks, since they probably get less traffic then Photoshop. Maybe another for web design discussions, etc.

So that'll give you something to consider over the weekend. BTW... I just set up a hang-out space for people, if they'd like. It's an Adobe Connect room so we get to check out that software as well. That is at http://experts.na3.acrobat.com/r40696279/ (We can even set up a breakout room for Spanish speakers!)

[Claudio_González1]

> Ramón's point would be the only real correction I'd make as well.

Well, to be frank, I see no correction to what I said in Ramón's remark. Just a few words after the phrase of mine he quotes, I wrote

>Such things are likely to make the new localized forums difficult to use, to put it mildly. It is yet to be seen if they will manage to survive the changes.

As to this

>One of the big discussions I would expect soon afterward would be how to best structure the Spanish forum so that the traffic is appropriately divided up.

I wouldn't waste time trying to guess this until we know what the traffic really is. Considering that many people posting there will not be aware of a change until it comes, I would expect it could take several months until we know.

[Guest]

Yep, the till we know is the reason to not sweat it at this point. We'll massage it into shape in time.

[Jacob Bugge]

So this is the last day.

It has been very nice to take part. Hopefully, it has not all been in vain.

I believe you are the one to thank most, Claudio, for your incessant efforts on behalf of all.

[Claudio_González1]

Well, I would like to think that the very existence and persistence of this thread had some influence, however small, in the decission to port the localized forums to the new ones. And I would have not been persistent if I hadn't received continuous moral support from so many others...

[Jacob Bugge]

So this thread survived the journey through the abyss.

[Claudio_González1]

So it did. I have just found out by accident that the new forums are working before than expected, so I have not yet seen what happened in the forums in Spanish. I very much hope, however, that this thread is no longer necessary.

Going to look for the Spanish forum now..

[Claudio_González1]

Much worse than I thought. There are pages and pages of threads listed, almost all posted by "Newsgroup_User", with last reply by the same; and the newest thread listed is from April 2007. In other words: unless I am very wrong, only very old threads from the ex-MM forums were ported...

[Guest]

You might want to send a private message to John to ask what was imported and what wasn't. http://forums.adobe.com/people/John%20Cornicello

[Claudio_González1]

I had forgotten to report. I sent a PM to JC, but the problem got solved some other way and we are getting the full list of threads.

[Jacob Bugge]

I take it, all forums are messed?

Still no profile, Claudio?

[Claudio_González1]

Yes, Jacob, so they are. Unfortunately and completely.

By the way, my photo is in my profile. Only thing is, right now I cannot open people's profiles. It is one of the few things that was working.

Addition: well, now I can. Either it was a glitch, or it is one of the many sssssssllllllllllllooooooooowwwwww things in the new forums.

Message was edited by: Claudio González. Reason: addition.

[Jacob Bugge]

So this international weather station thread is still needed.

Now, finally we are having some warmth. The different cherries (41 in total of 3 kinds), pears (6 of 1 kind), and apples (21 in total of 3 kinds), have been grafted, and the new anemonies have been planted.

And you are distinguished, Claudio.

[Claudio_González1]

Jacob, our main problem in the forums in Spanish is the almost infinitesimal number of regular helpers, and the very small number of posts. Just before I started writing this message, the newest message over there was four days old.

For reasons that JC explained in another thread, Adobe Spain has never had any official link with -or interest in- those forums, which explain at least partially this very small attendance to them.

After we got the new version of these forums, if one goes to Soporte (support) > Foros (forums) in the Adobe Spain site, one is taken here:

http://forums.adobe.com/index.jspa

And I cannot imagine how on earth a non English speaking person is supossed to find his/her way from there to here:

http://forums.adobe.com/community/international_forums/espanol

I must say that I found it difficult the first time I tried, and that the first time I got to the Spanish forums after the earthquake, I followed a completely different route. Quite frankly, I think that, with this kind of help from Adobe Spain, the number of people visiting the forums in Spanish will never increase.

A very long way of saying that you may be right and this topic may still be needed...

This year, our summer persisted for quite long after its official end, and it's just beginning to fade now, although rather quickly -temperatures drop noticeably from one day to the next. Perhaps for this reason, fruits in (the summer) season were exceptional. I had not tasted such good peaches, pears, and grapes -amongst other fruits- for perhaps decades. I do hope that you have the same luck with your new trees and flowers.

As for my looks, I already commented to someone else in another thread that, at my age, you either look like a distinguished gentleman, or like a wreck, and that I seem to have been lucky so far...

[Claudio_González1]

Removal by a host of commercial links in an ancient message of this topic made that message the "last post" for the system. I'm posting this just to remove this anomaly.

[Guest]

Claudio González wrote:

After we got the new version of these forums, if one goes to Soporte (support) > Foros (forums) in the Adobe Spain site, one is taken here:

http://forums.adobe.com/index.jspa

And I cannot imagine how on earth a non English speaking person is supossed to find his/her way from there to here:

http://forums.adobe.com/community/international_forums/espanol

Claudio, there is a drop down list on the index page for international forums. Do you think folks looking for a Spanish forum wouldn't find that list? If not, perhaps you need to find the person in charge of the Adobe Spain site and get them to change the link.

[Claudio_González1]

Dorothy, the index page is in English. The dropdown list is very long and not very conspicuous, and you have to scroll through what looks like an endless list of products, almost to the bottom, to find that there is an International Forums item. Then you have to guess that perhaps that means that there might be a forum in Spanish, and that it could be a product forum in which you can post product questions.

Do you seriously believe that a newcomer with an urgent product question will get there? I am reasonably fluent in English and wasn't in any hurry when I started  looking for the forums in Spanish that I knew were somewhere in this site because I had gotten there by another way, and it took me some time exploring before finding the route that may seem obvious once you know it.

And the part about my finding the person in charge of the Adobe Spain site and persuading him/her to change the link... I couldn't laugh even if I had been sure you were joking.

Addition: I have just remembered that I have United States selected on the topmost row, and that I was told by someone, probably JC, that I would get most fixed texts in Spanish if I changed that to Spain. I have not tried this because it affects all the site, and before the earthquake, texts in Spanish were sometimes in good Spanish, mostly in bad Spanish, and sometimes just in English, which was a chore. So I don't know if changing the country/language would make the search any easier. I have my doubts, but will try it when I can find the time for it.

Message was edited by: Claudio González. Reason: last minute addition.

[Kath-H]

If not, perhaps you need to find the person in charge of the Adobe Spain site and get them to change the link.

You can't be serious! How could this be a user's responsibility???!!!! How about a Community Expert, qualified only in forum administration, gets off his/her bum and does it?