full quality screen shoot of my view

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

Hello,

i am working with projects which use pantone colors... and not one adobe software can give me the same colors after merging pantone colors as they were before shown on my display...

why can not photoshop or ilustrator or indesign just take each pixcel color and export it to rgb... (my display is showing current pantone colors in rgb so i should get the same resolut after merging or exporting view layer)
i understand if you are merging pantone colors like you transfare color to rgb and than merge it than it can not work... so why adobe just does not take each pixcell color curently shown on display and instead of converting to rgb and than merging theese rgb layers... (this seems like what merging chanels do)

So my idea would be to add button which will export current view in its resolution... it would also help people if they would like to export measurement lines or picture boarders... just something like screen shoot but in the same resolution as project is...
You could make script for it which will zoom the view to have one pixcell the same size as current screen and take multiple screenshots and combining them to one high resolution picture

[davescm]

Your idea seems somewhat confusing in terms of what issue you are attempting to resolve.

Photoshop and Illustrator are both colour managed so will display colours correctly, provided the colour profiles of the document and the monitor are correct.

Colours values in a document are just that - numeric values. That applies whether they are RGB or CMYK. What makes those values represent real life colours is the document colour profile, e.g. sRGB or Adobe RGB...etc. the same values represent different colours if the document colour profile is different.

To display colours on your screen, the colour management system translates the colour values in your document to those values sent to your monitor in order to display correctly. It does this translation using the document profile embedded in your document and the monitor colour profile installed in your operating system. That of course can only work correctly if the monitor profile represents your monitor in its current state of adjustment. That is why we use calibration devices to calibrate and profile our monitors. If you change a monitor control, e.g. brightness or contrast, then a new profile is required as the old one can no longer describe the monitor.

You mention screenshots. If using a screenshot then the values taken will begin the monitor colour space. So a screenshot should always be assigned the monitor colour profile then converted to a document profile when used in another document.

Dave

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

yep i know about color management... and display diferences... but i does not compare color which i see with my own eyes to printed pantone colors... i compare before pantone chanels are merged with after pantone chanels are merged (to rgb)... (with expectation that before pantone chanels are merged is that is displayed correctly)

but to claryfi what i do: i will get print data with pantone colors and from theese data i will make 3D remakes of theese products in blender... so i need as simular resolut as possible to pantone colors but in rgb... (and i am expecting that when project has pantone colors inside it is displayed correclty) But when i merge chanels it is rly diferent on diferent parts of image... sometimes it get less saturated in darker places or staff likethat... (it is not just tyni color diference it is dark and light places diference and saturation on some places) merging just one pantone chanel seems fine but 2 pantone chanels or more will make big diferences before and after merge (i have before and after the same color space)

mabie i am missing something about theese colors...
I am able to edit image with merged pantone chanels to looks simular to image before merging chanels... with expectation it was correct before... so there is color possibility to do that... but it takes so much time and it is so frustrating to see correct colors before merging...

hope this message is understandable.. it is for me rly hard to describe in english

[davescm]

Hi

You have introduced all kinds of additional variants into your question and in your workflow. So step by step:

1. You mention using Pantone colours in Photoshop and Illustrator. Are these spot channels? What is the document profile? Do they look similar to your printed swatches at that initial stage?  Note : A screen and a printed Pantone swatch - designed for a specific media type are not going to look identical, on is emmisive one is reflective, but can look close with correct lighting on the swatch and a correctly calibrated and profiled screen, set up for matching output.

2. You mention merging channels - are you converting the spot channels into your document colour space at that stage and is that where you see the colour shift?  Did you check whether the spot colours are actually within the gamut of your document space? If they can't be contained in the document colour space then you are indeed going to see a shift.

3. You mention using the colours in Blender, and I asssume you mean as material colours, but have not mentioned how you have Blender set up for colour management. Blender does not use ICC colour profiles but, as default (you have not mentioned setting up Blender for ACES so I assume you are using it as default), expects sRGB in the Base Color channel and raw/non colour in the other material channels (Metal, Roughness, Displacement and Normal).  How are you generating the other channels? Roughness and specular will both influence the look of a colour at render time.

As default Blender does not use the ICC monitor profile, so your monitor needs to be calibrated to one of the standard available spaces e.g. Rec709 or sRGB in order to view with predictable results. I switch my monitor to restrict its gamut when using Blender.

On rendering, colours will change according to the lighting set up used in Blender and the output colour space. If you are using the standard Filmic transform then you will need to assign sRGB to the render (it will be untagged when rendered) and then adjust as the standard output is designed to be somewhat flat in order to retain detail. Of course any adjustment then changes output colour.

None of this would be resolved by taking screenshots which as mentioned earlier are in the monitor colour space (although usually untagged).

Dave

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

Hello,

so i will try again... i for example i have 2 pantone spot chanels... and as i expect when viewing project with theese pantone chanels it should be shown correctly... and i also expect when i merge chanels to rgb it is not correct... i would love to get the same resolut which was before the merging becouse i expecting that is correct... i can get the same resolut of colors which i saw before (expecting that is correct) with print screen... but i would need to merge multiple printscreens to get correct quality.

But if you tell me that photoshop showing the colors wrong allready before merging pantone chanels than it would be diferent story.

picture below shows compareson before and after merging spot chanels to rgb (when i take screenshoot it shows the diference... (both screenshots are png - RGB - so there is color possibility to get the resolut using RGB)) - (i tryed editing merged image so that i would get correct somewhat simular resolut to how it looks like before merging chanels... so there is possibility in RGB colorspace to get the colors which were shown before - but it takes so much time and it must be manualy done for every single project... would be faster to do multiple screenshoot and manualy merging them into one - but still my case is based on my expectation that adobe displaying pantone spot chanels corectly)

theese are the 2 pantone colors

I was not tallking more about blender becouse my issue is not about final product but about preparing the texture(material)... (i would like to have correct texture before using blender) i know that final product will have again diferent color becouse of multiple reasons as you said...
And also if someone is creating fake 3D with photoshop they will have the same issue. While preparing textures

answares to your 1. point:
1) yes they are spot colors.
2) do not know what do you mean by document profile... i have RGB mode if that is what you ment
3) I had not checked real pantone swatches with what i see on my display. I am expecting when photoshop uses pantone spot chanels it calculating the color correctly... is not he ?

answares to your 2. point:

1) yes the color shift happend when i convert pantone spot colors to my document color space as you can see on screenshot higher

2) i did not checked if spot colours are actually within the gamut of your document space? but my screenshoot shows the diference between before and after merging pantone chanels... so png - rgb can reproduce the color which i saw before merging

answares to your 3. point:
do not wory about blender... that was just info for what i am using final export from photoshop... and why i would like to merge pantone chanels to rgb color space.

thanks a lot for your time... and again sory for my bad english 🙂

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

this will show better what is happening
when i merge only 317C that collor is fine... but when i merge 7474C that makes the visible diference

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

for example i recreated something that seems almost simular to how it was before merging that pantone spot chanel...
needed diferent colors for diferent colors for places where was diferent amounts of that dark green pantone color... but why should i be editing it by my eye when i could just take screen shots which would be simular to how it looks like before... (but i am expectation that photoshop shows it correctly before merging chanels)

[davescm]

Hi 

There is still insufficient information in your screenshots to show exactly what is happening. Can you attach two PSD files, the first immediately before the merge that shifts colours, the second immediately after and I will take a look when I get back to my office this evening. Crop them to remove any intellectual property, I am only interested in the color change.

Dave

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

here are 4 project files 2 for coconut project and 2 for orange project... for testing i painted full contrast circles in chanels to show you how big diference merging chanels will create

I do merge theese chanels with this dropdown menu

[davescm]

Hi

Thanks for the files. One of your documents is in sRGB the other in CMYK (GRACol_20006_Coated1v2)

Both how the color shift in Photoshop's on screen preview when merging the spot color channels. At first I suspected that the change might be due to the spot colour being out of the gamut of the document profile. However, in the sRGB document, the colours used appear to be in gamut and the color shift in the on screen preview was quite substantial between before and after merging.

I'll tag a couple of the forums colour experts to see if they can shed any light on this @D Fosse @TheDigitalDog 

Dave

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

Hello,
thanks for your help

1. oh yes i foregot to convert coconut (greenish) project to rgb... but it is just worse when i would use cmyk becouse of cmyk low color range...
   Normaly we get theese files in cmyk... so i does every time convert them into rgb... 

[D Fosse]

Pantone 7474C, as defined by Lab 43 -35 -18, is outside sRGB gamut. It can be reproduced in Adobe RGB.

This screenshot has Adobe RGB embedded and shows the difference, if seen on a wide gamut monitor (the inline image has the profile stripped, so click to show it correctly):

Now, I don't have any experience with spot channels and don't really know how out-of-gamut colors are treated.

But if you try this again in an Adobe RGB document you can tell us if you see the same there.

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

Hello,
AdobeRGB does not make visible diference from my perspective... both of theese screenshots are from adobeRGB before and after spot colors merge (left one before - right one after)
here are the AdobeRGB project files if you would like to see with your own eyes (as you can see screenshot can capture the diference so i think my idea of photoshop full quality something like screencapture export would be working better than merging chanels like this) and it could also help people which would like to export measurements or image borders...

[D Fosse]

If this happens in an Adobe RGB file, and the color is definitely not out of gamut - then it looks to me like a bona fide bug. But again, my experience with spot is very much lacking.

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

it is happening with every projects some are worse some better... if it is rly bad we are recoloring it manualy

[davescm]

I've just had another look at this today as it puzzled me.

I opened a document in Lab and filled with each of the named Pantone colours and then used Photoshop's proof colours and gamut warning (yes I'm aware of its shortcomings but I just wanted an indication as to what might be happening)

Pantone Orange 021 C shows as out of gamut in both sRGB and Adobe RGB. It shows as in gamut in ProPhoto

Pantone 158C shows as in gamut in sRGB

Pantone 317C shows as in gamut in sRGB

Pantone 7474C shows as out of gamut in sRGB but in gamut in Adobe RGB

So the step change does indeed look like it may be due to out of gamut colours and how those need to be contained in the document profile gamut after merging.

Building the two starting documents in Prophoto showed smaller changes on merging. Surprisingly (to me) creating the documents in Lab and merging there resulted in a similar visual shift to that seen merging directly in sRGB, but without seeing the inner workings of the spot channel merge I can't explain it.

So the closest on screen results I got were building the docs in 16 bit ProPhoto and merging there, but that still resulted in colours that were out of gamut for sRGB so regardless some correction is still needed if a document contained in the sRGB colour space is the intended outcome.

Dave

[D Fosse]

OK, I assumed that orange could be held in ARGB, but apparently not.

In order to troubleshoot this, it is absolutely essential to remove out of gamut from the equation. If this is not a bug, out of gamut is the only explanation - except if it was a noisy image. Is it? Then you need to compare at 100% (insert long and separate explanation here). I didn't get the impression that there were any noise effects here.

So we have two Pantones that are definitely in gamut: 158C, and 317C. How do those two behave?

But all in all, from what I get from the above posts, it does sound like a bug.

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

Hello,

combining 158C, and 317C in prophotoRGB does noto make any visible diference

[pavelt65801519]

Hello.
almost 2 months ago i found a solution for this issue. But i had no time to share it...

So from what i understood this is what is doing photoshop during merging: photoshop convert each pantone layer into RGB and than photoshop starting to merge it base on density of that pantone color.
This works until the pantone colors are in color range of rgb. But when it is out of gamut (yelow triangle with exclemention mark) than it start failing. Becouse when the color is out of gamut that could mean places with more density or placess with more alfa chanel could have more saturation at the end than normal places. This is where photoshop is failing... photoshop just can not flat out all pantone color to only one rgb layer and than merge it... 

That is my theory what is happening inside photoshop. Becouse screenshot which is taking picture pixcel by pixcel shows way better resoluts.

 So i start thinking how could i take exactly the same quality screenshot of visual.

At the end Ilustrator works (merging transparency works like screenshot if you uncheck preserve pantone colors)... but it still has few issues but they are way less visible than false colors in photoshop. (in ilustrator... you should merge as less staf as possible becouse at the end around sharp edges it could make some artefacts... so in the best case merge only pantone layers and other texts or png add on top of it... for my case we are geting printing artworks in ilustrator... so i just take background pantone layers which are link from photoshop. So i do not need to do almost anything)

so 1. step check only layers which has some pantone inside... (not gold or silver ones theese pantone colors need to be faked by hand or replace in 3D by gold material)

2. step set document color mode as RGB if you wont RGB.. if you wint final image in CMYK than set cmyk (if you not sure always chose RGB - it has better color range)

3. step go to Object/Flatten Transparency...

4. step in new window uncheck all checkmarks... and both ppi text box set to your ppi which you will be exporting (i amd exporting in 1200)... and slider set to 100

5. step press OK (your layer will be merged... if you checked more layers they mabie jumped higher in your layers... so make sure you are not hiding anything below...)

6. step export as PNG set ppi you set in step abowe and make sure you checked Art Optimalized (Supersampling) if you would not do Supersampling than there will be Hairpin micro-Strip lines from the flattening.

And now you have wisibli way better merged pantone colors than from photoshop.

Here is the resolut

1. is photoshop merging pantone

2. is original screenshot from photoshop

3. is flattening with pantones in ilustrator

you could see still tyni diference... but it could be just becouse of preview settings of ilustrator... can not tell which one ( pre merging or after flattening in ilustrator (2. or 3. picture) looks more simular to real print product... hard to tell diferent lightning in real life diferent color, reflections... ... ...) but the resoluts are absolutly fine now...

So that is the solution for us... we allready using it for some time - no problems yet... and waaay better resoluts... for us it is also faster than opening each photoshop layer merging pantones there... and i am not tallking about how long workers here tryed to repair the colors after merging it to get something better than what you see photoshop does...

Hope this will help to someone.
Have nice day.
With best wishes Dominik Jiruše

[kinimod24552039dpbs]

Hello,

sory i sended the solution from diferrent company account (but i am the same person).

thanks for all your time and help with this problem @D Fosse @davescm