Bringing sdr footage into my hdr rec 2020 workspace and export

[mascok]

I need help figuring out how to bring some sdr rec 709 footage into my hdr video. I am exporting in rec 2020 hdr, but the sdr portion of the video becomes really dark after export. I need to somehow get the sdr video tonemapped to be viewed in the rec 2020 colorspace. I have tried to just simply increase the exposure of the sdr video, but after exporting in rec 2020 the sdr footage becomes completely washed out and loses information. How can I get my sdr footage to look correct in a rec 2020 hdr render? 

[R Neil Haugen]

Did you change the color space of the clips in the project panel ... Modify/Interpret Media, and check the color-space options?

What is the timeline color space set to in the Sequence Settings dialog?

Neil

[mascok]

Here is a screenshot of the sdr footage under interpret media. Seems as though Color Management is greyed out. Also here is a screenshot of my sequence settings. 

[R Neil Haugen]

So, you're viewing in SDR via Premiere, but exporting to one of the HDR options? That's pretty tough to do and be sure of anything.

It isn't easy nor cheap to work HDR. With Premiere, currently, you need the AJA or BlackMagic gear connected between you computer and the monitor to get the monitor to see HDR output from Premiere, as the internal monitors are not yet set to show HDR. The gear is listed in the FAQ on working in HDR.

I suppose ... have you read through that FAQ? Well, a couple of them ...

FAQ: Setting up for HDR in Premiere Pro Fall 2020

Discuss: Rec.2100 HLG HDR Workflow

So currently the general recommendation is to get the AJA or BM kit to connect your computer and HDR monitor, and typically set your sequence color management and Lumetri scopes panels to the same color space. That makes exporting vastly easier.

You can try using the Lumetri scopes and sequence both set to Rec2100 in either PQ or HLG ... probably PQ ... as at least, the scopes will show you the tonal range of the image.

Neil

[mascok]

Fortunately, I do not need to color grade the hdr footage. Is it possible to get access to color management under interpret footage? I am unsure why it is greyed out. I really just need to tone map the sdr footage so that it does not look so dark after export.

[R Neil Haugen]

What is that media, btw? What made it, and what is the format/codec?

And my comments about color space setup didn't have to do with grading, but simply getting the media on the same "page" for color space.

Neil

[mascok]

The video files are .mp4 files. They were captured using Nvidia's screen capture tool. Some were captured in hdr, others in sdr. When I changed the sequence colorspace, the hdr export became overblown and weird, even while using the recommended export settings on the guide you sent. If I export in hdr with my sequence in rec709, the hdr parts of the video look great, but the sdr ones are too dark. If I export in sdr, the sdr parts look great, but the hdr parts look overexposed and terrible.

[mascok]

I can export in sdr and use sdr conform under effects which makes both the sdr and hdr parts look mostly ok, but that defeats the purpose of having hdr footage. 

[R Neil Haugen]

When I changed the sequence colorspace, the hdr export became overblown and weird, even while using the recommended export settings on the guide you sent.

What were you viewing them in? And on what monitor/device?

Neil

[mascok]

I am using vlc media player to view the files and my monitor is the Asus PQ27UQ: 4k hdr with peak brightness at 1000nits. Hdr is also on in windows and Nvidia control panel. 

[mascok]

https://www.asus.com/us/Monitors/ROG-SWIFT-PG27UQ/specifications/

[R Neil Haugen]

It would be very useful if say @Francis-Crossman could pop in here, as this is so flipping new.

Neil

[mascok]

That sounds good

[Francis-Crossman · Accepted solution]

There are many things going on here.  So let me spell out a few key things to understand first.

1. Premiere requires transmit hardware from AJA or BMD to properly monitor HDR content. PPro cannot drive your HDR desktop monitor yet.  When working in HDR, you cannot trust your program and source monitors - they will look wrong.
2. Only ProRes MOV and XAVC Intra MXF are fully color-managed at this time. 
3. Interpret footage is only available for color-managed codecs
4. Adding color-managed files to a sequence will automatically convert between colorspaces.

Unfortuanately, mixing colorspaces like you are with non-color-managed codecs is going to be difficult.  I recomend transcodoing everything to ProRes HQ.  Then use interpret footage to override the colorspace of the HDR clips to the correct HDR color space (probably Rec2100 PQ - is this HDR10 footage?).  Leave the SDR clips alone, Rec709 is correct.  Create a sequence from one of the HDR clips.  This will set up the colorspace of the new sequence correctly.  Then edit everything into your sequence like normal.  The SDR clips will automatically be colormanged to the HDR colorspace of the sequence.  They will never be as bright as the HDR clips, but that is to be expected.  

Hope this helps a bit.  HDR is a confusing area and our HDR support is improving with each release.

[salvo34]

I'm confused. Does secret code SDR and HDR mean standard resolution and high def resolution respectively ?

I adobe does everything in rec709 and users monitor is probably sRGB, isn't this a weird thing ? On one hand you got some resolution and IRE standard ( originally interpolated ) and now you got some conversion to bigger dimension and ( potentially ) bigger gamut or else it doesn't make any sense to me.

???

what is SDR and HDR ???? please explain as I love learning stuff.

And why is your source 1 frame per second ???? that sounds weird to me.

[R Neil Haugen]

SDR and HDR are about the color spaces involved, not the frame size.

SDR is standard dynamic range, as say Rec.709

HDR is high dynamic range, the Rec.2020 or Rec.2100 standards, and can be in PQ or HLG ... different "flavors" ... and yea, it's darn confusing.

Premiere now allows you to set a color space for each clip in the Modify/Interpret Footag dialog in the Project panel, and for timelines in the Sequence settings dialog. And of course, you can set the color space for the scopes also.

What Premiere doesn't do is allow you to see HDR media properly in the Program monitor ... or any other internal monitor in Premiere. You have to have specific devices from AJA or BlackMagic to get the proper HDR signal out of the computer without the OS touching it, and send that to a monitor that recognizes the appropriate HDR "protocols".

Yea, it's a hassle still.

Neil

[mascok]

8bit (sdr) = 16,777,216 colors

10bit (hdr) = 1,073,741,824 colors

12bit (hdr (dolby vision)) = 68,719,476,736 colors

Each step up in bits requires a significant step up in nits as well to produce the colors accurately. 

[mascok]

Additionally, rec709 is what encapsulates 8bit color, and rec2020 is what encapsulates 10 and 12bit color. And to be clear sdr vs hdr refers mostly to the contrast ratio (highest vs lowest amount of nits) of content. That is why there can technically be 8bit hdr... large enough contrast ratio without the additional colors. 

[salvo34]

Thanks, Neil.

I sorta deal with that via edit computer and monitors ( video out of bm card via BNC) and use that as hero.

But I don't use adobe except for simple quick stuff ( have cs6 ). Like I got something from friend in AZ. ( Bill Hunt ) the other day for an intro he did, and got a little whacky re: levels and colors ( saturation mostly).

And I haven't even put the stuff on edit computer yet... I'm just using my junky laptop so far to rough cut the thing and proxy it in resolve.

I'll pick your brains when I get to the edit computer and yap about resolve with you.

Adobe is getting over designed for bigger pie IMO.

[salvo34]

this is the intro so far on laptop. the blue baby is way too dark.  and I already did resolve stuff on that color... but it's still ugly IMO.. poor baby.... they become RGB ( all colors of the word, and all races and ethnic groups, etc... that's the metaphor visually ). I don't think it's working too great right now but am chugging along to tell story about 'learning' and so on.... simple stuff.

[video]

[R Neil Haugen]

The theoretical amount of colors available simply due to bit depth is not necessarily that useful a number. As the standards set a particular set of volume to the color spaces, and within those, most gear struggles to produce even close to the wider spaces. The more useful number is the actual color volume used from front to back in any workflow.

And that comes from the people desiging the calibration and profiling systems for high-end pro video post color. But that subject is all pretty dense, and is something more for the pro colorists/vfx people to hassle through. And yea, I sit in on a LOT of those discussions.

Plus there's a massive difference between how the high contrast of HDR is handled on Grade 1 HDR Reference Monitors like say the Flanders XM311k and a consumer TV. That rig is simply stated as 1,000,000:1 contrast. Period. Plus, in native operation it exceeds DCI P3 color space, which is what one needs for working with DolbyVision or whatever.

I've not seen any consumer TV that comes even close. They oft have specs that suggest a wide contrast range, but in reality they can't do both the 1,000 nit (if they even can ever hit it in real life!) and a 0.01 nit on the screen at the same time.

Reference monitors must be able to maintain the extreme contrast range period, and the main way currently is "dimming zones" ... areas where the brightness can be dropped or raised depending on the need. It takes a lot of dimming zones to keep the blacks black while there's a "peak white" value close by.

That's the huge failure of the new Apple "HDR" monitor ... it doesn't have nearly the dimming zones needed.

And it's why the full-on pro HDR reference monitors are realistically all over a 'minimum' of $18,000USD. That Flanders is MSRP of $37,500, and yea, I know several people that own them. Ain't gonna be in my room any time soon though. I've met Bram Desmet at NAB. Nice guy, but no way he's going to give me one. And I cannot possibly justify the expense.

I gave a talk in the Flanders/MixingLight booth at NAB last year, sandwiched between Alexis Van Hurkman and the guy from DolbyVision ... with the screen our laptops were sent to being that XM311K. Wow ... that is an amazing screen. Easily the prettiest screen any of my stuff has ever appeared on.

But I've never come close to spending that much on a car. Not going to meet budgeted funds available in my business.

So ... what's a person to do? We try to cadge together something with consumer HDR TVs and monitors. Which doesn't always work particularly well ... hence this entire conversation.

Neil

[mascok]

Haha yeah, I only paid $1700 or so for my monitor. It comes nowhere close to a full pro HDR reference monitor. Still, though, with its decent HDR capabilities and its somewhat minuscule 384 FALD zones, it has been working well for my photography work and is probably good enough as I begin to move into videography. I'll need that black magic adapter you recommended in order to progress into videography much further, but for now, I just want to get a good workflow going in premiere pro before I invest in such things. As of right now, as you've seen, I have run into a wall with HDR and HDR is what I'll be filming in. So I will likely not be investing until I get my head wrapped around the workings of Premiere Pro and figure out a way past this pesky wall. 

[R Neil Haugen]

And it is quite a wall. Having seen the Promised Land on that Flanders in-person, and also some of the attempts to pseudo-sort-of get close in other situations, it really is a vast gulf.

And as much as I understand what it's there, and what it is, well ... ain't no way I can pay for that. From all I've seen, less than 10% of full-time pro colorists have a full-on Grade 1 Reference HDR monitor. Quite a few either rent a monitor for a job or rent a room with a monitor in it.

So ... yea, looking at running say a BlackMagic card/lut-box to perhaps an LG -CX, their new version. After doing a calibration and profiling series with LightSpace, an i1 Display Pro puck and Resolve as the patch-generator, supposedly you can get somewhat sorta close. Kinda. But as it doesn't hold the full contrast in any absolute sense, it doth make actual grading of HDR material ... iffy.

You can get a good "feel" though, and that is apparently the best we can get without trading in a nice Audi for it. Sigh.

Neil

[R Neil Haugen]

Francis,

Thanks for stopping in to help! There are so many new "moving parts" ... and things like only a couple codecs are currently usable with the color management controls is pretty easy to forget.

Neil

[Francis-Crossman]

I hear ya.  This stuff is not easy right now, but we're working to make it easier and more intuitive and it's getting better with every release.