Hi All,
I was very excited to hear about Color Management being added to Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019. I can confirm that color and/or gamma shifts are improved when "Enable Display Color Management" is checked under Premiere Pro CC > Preferences > General. There is still, however, a slight variation between what is seen in the Premiere Pro Program Monitor and what is exported by Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 or Adobe Media Encoder CC 2019. To the naked eye, the exports from Premiere Pro and Media Encoder seem slightly washed out when played back on Quicktime, YouTube on the Safari Web browser, or on the YouTube app on the iPhone XS Max. VLC Media Player over-saturates and shifts the colors even more. I am running the latest version of Premiere Pro Version 13.0 (Build 225) on a 27-inch Late 2015 iMac with a 5K Retina display. My processor is a 4GHz Intel Core i7, my Memory is 24GB DDR3, and my Graphics Card is an AMD Radeon R9 M395X. Does anybody have any insight into what could be causing these color/gamma shifts, despite the new Color Management feature in Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 now supposed to make what we see in the Premiere Pro Program Monitor 100% accurate to what will be exported? I have included the variances below (please look closely) on a Premiere Pro-generated Bars and Tone graphic for reference. Thank you in advance for your help!
A Screenshot of the Program Monitor within Premiere Pro CC 2019:
An Exported Frame from the Premiere Pro CC 2019 Project:
Please notice:
1) The slight hue difference in the bottom left cyan color.
2) The slight hue difference in the bottom middle purple color.
3) The lighter shade of black in the bottom right.
A Screenshot of the Exported Clip, Playing Back in Quicktime:
Please notice:
1) The slight hue difference in the bottom left cyan color.
2) The slight hue difference in the bottom middle purple color.
3) The lighter shade of black in the bottom right.
A Screenshot of the Exported Clip, Uploaded to YouTube, Playing Back on the Safari Web Browser:
Please notice:
1) The slight hue difference in the bottom left cyan color.
2) The slight hue difference in the bottom middle purple color.
3) The lighter shade of black in the bottom right.
I understand the the differences here are very subtle and are rather hard to see in a Bars & Tone graphic on this website. These differences become much more noticeable with one's specific footage, however, and bringing these above graphics into Photoshop with the blending set to "Difference" shows the definite variance I speak of.
Thank you in advance for your time and assistance as we try to make Color Management seamless within Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019.
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Replies
Hi Francisco,
Thanks for the reply. Per your request, here is the addition information you requested:
1) I can confirm that I am already using the top-most and default ICC profile on my iMac. It is, indeed, called "iMac."
2) I am not using a second monitor.
3) Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 has been launched.
4) GPU Acceleration is enabled and was already set to enabled.
5) Display Color Management is turned on and was already set to on.
6) HD Bars and Tone has been placed on a new timeline.
7) The Digital Color Meter app is opened.
8) I have measured the RGB values of each part of the HD Bars and Tone graphic.
9) I have exported a few seconds of the HD Bars and Tone graphic, bringing that exported footage back into Premiere Pro.
10) I measure the exported file within the same Premiere Pro timeline with the Digital Color Meter. Values are identical.
11) I have launched Adobe After Effects CC 2019.
12) GPU Acceleration is enabled and was already set to enabled.
13) Work space is set to Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 in Project Settings/Color, everything else is set to default.
14) Display Color Management is enabled in After Effects and was already enabled.
15) I have imported the HD Bars and Tone file exported from Premiere Pro into After Effects.
16) I have measured each bar with the Digital Color Meter. Values are not identical. Interestingly enough, all color values ARE identical, but all black/white/grey bars on the HD Bars and Tone graphic show clear RGB value discrepancies. Please see the attached image for a few of the RGB value differences I am measuring with Digital Color Meter on the graphic.
This almost certainly indicates to me that something is still going wrong with the Adobe Premiere Pro Color Management. Colors are rendering perfectly, but black values/contrast is not.
A sincere thank you to everyone who has helped regarding this issue!
I guess that graphic is from AE, cause I put into PSD and 100 seems to match it that one square.
maybe AE and PPro are using different numbers for the math re: IRE (7.5 - 100, or 0 - 100 ) and like, maybe 0-255 in one and 16-235 in the other, if EVERYONE is having the same problem you are experiencing. Otherwise others are getting the same bars and it's just something with your setup. I hope someone can figure out how to fix it so it works for you. Clearly what I see on my monitors is different than what you see on yours, so samples of color and gray scale won't work for me to make guesses about what is up.
It will be interesting to follow what happens.
this is interesting article if anyone feels like reading.
Understanding Video Levels « digitalfilms
Another crazy guess...maybe something is going on with the pivot or offset in the scale. I suppose comparing a real printed gray scale card on monitor with bars could maybe help figure out which one is closest to the real deal ??
Oh, I get it now.. it's a totally new design of the bars ...
It seems to me that there is a history of rec 709 and NTSC that goes back a while. An article (linked above) explains it to some extent. First TV was black and white. Then it became color. In order to keep black and white TV's alive, new signal (different wavelength but very close in electro magnetic spectrum) was introduced. One signal is black and white. The other signal is color.
Interpreting this stuff in the fast evolving world of computers ( digital film and digital monitors ( NOT CRT)) has been very challenging for everyone. Test patterns for black and white are different than test patterns for color. PRINTED materials that pro shooters use also have different cards used for gray scale and color, and also other cards for 'back focus' of cine lenses.
This doesn't matter here, because the poster is NOT trying to match what was shot and what the production company WANTS for their "look". He is ONLY concerned with the obvious discrepancy HE sees between PPro and AE using artificially generated "bars and tone" thing.
As far as watching it on other platforms (websites, players, etc. ) … all that can get thrown out the window and ignored.
He is ONLY concerned with the claim that the new version of CC is color managed to create perfect color and gray scale.
I think there is some scientist color engineer who promised to help him privately to solve this problem on the poster's specific platform ( computer and monitor, graphics card, preferences in programs, etc. )
I am hoping I get to hear something about the result of that interaction because I applaud Adobe in general ( and that scientist specifically ) that they care so much to help and will do that ! How cool is THAT ??
That's a very good question. Brings it down to basics.
I'd be very interested in the answer too. Maybe some sort of block diagram would help simplify things. Something simple that includes camera source material ( many variables potentially re: color ), peripherals ( monitors, input and output devices), adjustments made with PPro and scopes, and export types best suited to match SOMETHING.
hehe.
BMA ... no worries, and yea, I understand all you said.
My 'shop' is a very small one-man affair. I originally came out of a now 40 year career as a stills portrait photographer, we had our own full color lab servicing our own studio and those of other picky sots back in the wet-lab days. Both the missus and I were very skilled at b/w and color enlarging, often doing things the "Custom Printers" for the major pro labs said couldn't be done. We were doing it on a routine basis. And of course, to keep our processor's chemistry in-control I had to become a master of quality control checks & such. Color, in all respects, and tonalities ... those matter to my eyes.
When I started in video post, wow ... that was frustrating. Everything I've posted in this thread & others on color, I learned from the ol' hard-knocks school. Well ... really, after the first few hard knocks I went after learning how this video thing really worked. And why mine ... didn't. Because at first, it sure didn't! My first attempts to export something were horrid to look at. Even though my system worked great for tightly color-controlled prints from Lightroom or Photoshop sent out with "no color correction" instructions to the pro print lab we used.
My colorist friends have several grand in their Flanders or Dream-whatever 'confidence' monitors, and spent more in their calibration gear than my entire "suite" sytem. They all have external LUT-driven calibration boxes for every monitor using the LUTs their calibration gear provides. They also have a "pro" come in a couple times a year to do a "real" calibration with his gear that costs more than my cars combined.
Yea, that's great but ... I can't justify that cost. Not anywhere near. But I still have to produce media that is at least very close to b-cast for the various things I work on, even though none of it currently is for b-cast.
I run an LG "Ultrawide" 2560x1080 for my main UI monitor, and a Dell U2312HM for my 'confidence' monitor using Xrite calibration puck/software. Both monitors are set for totally 'manual' operation, no shading-for-black-scenes gaming crud or anything, and calibrated to Rec709 sRGB at 100 NITS.
My colorist friends shake their heads ... but when I've had them run quick QC checks for me ... "Well, um ... this was fine, but you know Neil ... you can't count on that system ... ".
The point is ... I've studied, bought stuff that, according to others, came as close to b-cast QC standards once calibrated as I could justify ... and then studiously applied the best calibration protocol I can.
Including ... the room I'm in has totally neutral gray walls that match the Kodak gray-card in R, G, and B values ... and I have a back-lighting system by MediaLight that is set to reflect off the wall at 10% of the brightest value off my screen (Measured with a high-grade spot meter). As shown in the image below of me at work on a recent salvage job for another editor. (That odd black thing pointing at my face is my Rode shotgun mic for doing video tutorials.)
Do I have the high-end gear that would be pretty cool to have? No. Can't justify the cost. Do I have a setup I can have pretty good confidence in? Yea ... because 1) I studied before buying anything, and bought to specific qualifiers; 2) I run calibrations every week; and 3) I've had exports tested on fully b-cast compliant systems. And everything checks as within bounds, color pleasing to the eye.
It's that bit about studying not assuming ... and then applying ... that seems quite hard for some.
But I do remember teaching all those employees in the old color lab days. The most consistent thing between that work and this? No one coming in understands what's going on for color in any way even close to what really happens. And what actually happens in color/tonality is so far from what "we" expect it's pretty hard at first to get a grip on it. I used to tell staff (as I was training them to print color) NOT to think at all the first probably three weeks, just do as they were told. By then ... they'd realized the color changes from the test prints they made, that I was giving them, made no sense ... then eventually passed through that to understanding something was happening they did not understand at all. And finally, to asking ... what really happens here?
At that point, I could teach them. Until they learned that what they thought and what were had no relationship, and they learned to let go of their preconceptions and just listen then apply, they couldn't learn to see and correct color in printing.
I explained that to a major teaching colorist I know and he snorted and said, wow ... that was about 90% of his work when teaching those new to video color post work ... how to work.
It's different than the old print days ... but still the same, it seems.
Neil
Neil, I couldn't resist ...
That's a great photo. You notice the spot light on the wall for the monitor ? It's bouncing into your face. Also some overhead light (probably same light) bouncing into the tops of your hands. A very subtle back (edge) light on top of your head would have been sweet.
You should have mentioned, " I had to add some light to the room to get a decent picture, cause otherwise it's too dark and weird ( like the monitors are really BRIGHT compared to the rest of the room )"
hehe... I'm just joking around. Kinda bored, still doing tutorials ( 15.5) with nice calibrated monitor. You might mention (since you are calibrated the way you are ) that you DON'T USE the color management thing right now. As your calibration supersedes monitor ICC profiles. It would be a conflict.
Neil, that is a great photo of your natural habitat. Thanks !
And also great to hear that everything is going well with monitor profiles ( ICC from monitor PNP).
Thanks !
Well, the whole computer display of video stuff is a mashup, which is why so many have troubles. We tend to assume "the system" is setup to work properly but in fact the OS/video card/monitor are actually setup to ignore proper color and give 'enhanced viewing enjoyment'.
Start with that, and now throw in wide-gamut monitors and HDR ... so there's various 'standards' different media might be needing. Competitive standards, in truth.
Yea, that's a recipe for train-wrecks ... 
This 'enable display color management' option is ... useful ... but not a cure-all, nor will it work for moving into wide ranging needs for media & monitors. For that, we'll need more options in PrPro's color management similar to say Resolve's user settings option. And yea, I'm pushing for that.
Neil
Taking a hint from your wonderful editing space (lighting), Neil, I arranged to build a little light thing for reading a manual I am using for a tutorial. It is a Dewalt LED work light with battery. It goes, studded C, gobo head, magic arm, gobo, cardellini clamp, LED light.
This arrangement keeps the light on my white walls down to a minimum. Also lets me adjust light so it doesn't reflect off shiny pages into my eyes. Works really neat !
Initial tests show no influence on exports. In fact, nothing I ever see is influencing exports. Also, I don't know why such a simple photo of a magic arm should be blurry … and think there's something wrong with photoshop probably.
Looks like the C clamp is about to eat its way into the plastic table. Oh oh !
I doubt it. I haven't even tried to connect the panel to PPro CS6, which is what I have.
I think that would be a huge waste of time. In fact, the panel doesn't do NOTHIN until you go to the 'color' page of resolve. It's all keyboard and mouse for the UI until you get to color.
that table is a 10 foot folding table in my living room ( for scale). I don't have room in front of me to have both keyboard and panel where it's comfortable. So, I have to move them (sometimes put panel in front, sometimes put it in back ). Is pain to move stuff but it's really the fact of life … stuff being where you want to use them.
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